Outsourcing wonder production

[frob2900]

In two proper games (both on monarch) and a test game (opponents chosen, map rerolled until starting positions as I wanted them) the following strategy has worked pretty well for me:

If you have an opponent that is wonder happy (industrious or a builder AI), gift them the relevant tech and if you have it, also gift a relevant resource (marble or stone), they then seem to be quite happy to build the wonder for you. I did this with stone and marble for Peter in one game and marble/literature for Huyana Capac in another. Peter built parthenon/hanging gardens and, importantly, Pyramids, whereas Huyana Capac put up the Great Library and the Parthenon.

While they were building these multi-hundred hammer wonders, I was building axes, spears and swords. Soon they were MY wonders

Of course, this strategy has a fatal flaw in that there might very well be other AIs building the same wonders etc. so its nowhere near a 100% surefire winner.

However, I think its the case that the AI will not trade techs that allow access to a certain wonder while they are building that particular wonder. Therefore, if one manages to gain exclusive early access to a tech which allows a certain wonder (literature comes to mind, perhaps also democracy fo SoL..) and then gifts the tech to an AI, will they avoid trading it further?

If this is the case and one has an industrious builder neighbor, wonders should be free and plentiful by making sure they have access to the correct resource and tech. In the meanwhile the player can keep up conquest without pause..

 

[HorsemasterK]

Party on, Wayne.

I've done the trading tech to get them to build wonder so I can take it part, but it never occurred to me to trade them the appropriate resource. I imagine it increases their likelihood of building it. Problem with using Literature is that I almost always want the GL in a specific city, and with wonders like that, it doesn't really work.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

The other problem is what city the ai builds the wonders in. Lets say he puts it in a city that has the culture closing in on it. When you capture it youll need to station lots of troops in it to keep it from flipping. Or if he built a wonder next to Alexander and before this you never shared borders. Now, after capturing the city...you DO share borders, it makes him upset, he invades.

 

[frob2900]

Well, I suppose shering a border with a psycho AI is always dangerous, however I suppose this strategy should be played only if the civ beign gifted stuff is a target in any case and will be fully wiped out.

If a really good wonder is built on a border someone shares with alexander, all the more reason to capture that city, so he doesnt get it

 

[Sisiutil]

It's not an unreasonable strat, but I'd be careful which wonders I help them build. As was mentioned above, several wonders really need to go into a suitable city to maximize their benefits--thus, I would never help the AI build the Great Library, for example. The Oracle is another one I'd rather they didn't build. The free tech is an advantage to whoever gets it first and diminishes in value over time--such as the time it may take to convince the Oracle-owning civ to cough up that tech.

However, the Pyramids would be an excellent candidate for this, as would the Great Wall, since their benefits are civ-wide and last the whole game. Gift Masonry and Stone to an Industrious neighbour and let them get busy hauling rocks while you sharpen your spear points.

 

[Yeekim]

Sisiutil made good points. I would only add, that Hanging Gardens also gives benefits to its original builder only, so you really cannot "outsource" it. But The Pyramids and Parthenon are good options.

I recall a Monarch game I had on huge earth map with Romans. Of course I beelined to Iron Working. By the time I had Praetorians ready to go, Louis, my closest neighbor had built both of them in Paris ...neglecting his military pretty much. So, with these and holy city from Isabella I was able to recreate Roman empire pretty much in its historical borders and more by the time my Praets once became obsoleted.

 

[frob2900]

Hanging gardens gives +1 health to all cities..

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutil made good points. I would only add, that Hanging Gardens also gives benefits to its original builder only, so you really cannot "outsource" it.

Are you sure about that? I've captured it in games and I'm pretty sure I've received the +1 health boost.

 

[Elandal]

Health boost is available from captured HG, the benefit for building them is instant growth (all your cities grow by one when it completes).

 

[Sisiutil]

Health boost is available from captured HG, the benefit for building them is instant growth (all your cities grow by one when it completes).

Oh, right, forgot about that. What is it about the Hanging Gardens that makes your citizens so randy, anyway?

And you lose that benefit in more ways than one if it's outsourced, since all those conquered cities will loose that added pop, and then some...

 

[ownedbyakorat]

What is it about the Hanging Gardens that makes your citizens so randy, anyway?

Does anything say "romance" like plants on a ziggurat?

 

[Sisiutil]

Does anything say "romance" like plants on a ziggurat?

I shall endeavor to remember that when my next anniversary rolls around.

 

[DaviddesJ]

And you lose that benefit in more ways than one if it's outsourced, since all those conquered cities will loose that added pop, and then some...

I don't think you get -1 pop in your cities if you have the Hanging Gardens and lose it. Any more than you get -1 tech if you have the Oracle and lose it.

 

[Sisiutil]

I don't think you get -1 pop in your cities if you have the Hanging Gardens and lose it. Any more than you get -1 tech if you have the Oracle and lose it.

No, what I meant is that cities have their population reduced as a result of being captured. Thus, by conquering the cities of the civ that built the Hanging Gardens, you'll be killing the citizens the wonder "gave" that civ.

 

[DaviddesJ]

No, what I meant is that cities have their population reduced as a result of being captured. Thus, by conquering the cities of the civ that built the Hanging Gardens, you'll be killing the citizens the wonder "gave" that civ.

Not really, because that loss happens either way.

If an opponent builds the Hanging Gardens just before you capture all of his cities, that's generally to your advantage, because you'll get more population in your captured cities than if he hadn't built it. Plus you get the +1 health.

 

[Yeekim]

Health boost is available from captured HG, the benefit for building them is instant growth (all your cities grow by one when it completes).

Yeah - methinks main benefit of Hanging Gardens is, that if you have large number of small-medium cities, this can give a significant kick to your population and thus economy. Benefit health-wise is really insignificant IMHO - so that I actually forgot about it

And you have to capture every city of your opponent, to fully "regain" every benefit of this wonder, as opposed to every other. So it may be nice to have, but still probably one of the worst to "outsource".

 

[cabert]

Some outsourceable wonders
- pyramids are n°1
- parthenon (really, who builds it ? I always end up with it, but I have never built it :grin
- Notre Dame (happiness from war, one of my favourite moves)
- Sistin chapel (yum yum not only does this guy offer you a wonder he even offers you culture to keep it)
- Angkor Wat
- stonehenge (hard to outsource [earlier than alphabet!], but good to capture)


Some others are harder to outsource because they have a prereq building
- colossus (how come the AI never builds the forge needed in a coastal city?)
- Great Library
- Great Lighthouse (this one seems to be available for ages in most games)


Others that you shouldn't outsource:
- oracle
- Hanging gardens
- Taj Mahal

I think it's not a good idea to try this strat for later wonders (Eiffel tower...)
because of
- the price for late wars
- the huge advantages from late game techs : trading one away is likely to give you a kick in the behind + giving your opponent bribe material isn't a bright move