Over the Reich - Creation Thread

Wow! :eek:

Now that is some amazing stuff to sort through!

I don't know that I can really represent the P-38 as you would want... Though featured, only one model is in the scenario (I use 3 models for the P-47 and 2 for the P-51, but only 1 P-38).

I represent flak production by having certain cities that cannot go over size 5 look like Flak Batteries, and be producing flak (which has "no" for a preq. so this should not be changed in the city). I do the same thing with radar waves (size 2 cities).

As I mentioned in my last post, I have seven targets (eight, if I get rid of a certain non-target unit) that can be changed around. Of them, the aircraft factory is really the only one I want to keep.

Here's the basic issue... My challenge is to give the player real motivation to launch attacks:

Spoiler :


Oil (doubles as aviation fuel): Strike this target, and there is a chance you will change the terrain near an airfield from fuel stores to fuel shortage, causing problems as all German aircraft have the settler function. Good reason to attack.

Railyards: Strike this, and the terrain with RR track around the target has the RR track removed, thus hampering German reinforcement and economy. Good reason to attack.

Cities: Strike this, and the factory terrain near the cities changes to rubble, thus hampering Germany industry (science progress). Good reason to attack.

Cities: Have England "research" "Raid so and so" and then the urban areas turn to 'firestorm,' thus hurting Germany's economy. Also a good reason.

Schweinfurt, Me163 factory, Me262 factory: Takes various techs away from Luftwaffe, compelling them to re-research them to get the units again (house rule: change production of unit types you can no longer produce, rather than leave them running). Also a good reason.

Everything else is just "take away money from Luftwaffe, and gain veteran experience." Not a terrible reason, but not really great, either.

I think I will use your map to help me add another "set" of targets: Electric Power Plants. I've read that this was one area the Allies really didn't press, but one that could have had significant effects. It will most likely obs. many wonders once a percentage of them are destroyed.



Again, many thanks for your help :)
 
Civinator, your map was a god-send. Thank you so much for uploading it! The scenario will be much better because of it!

I've used your map and revised the target system. Now, we'll operate on a "three strikes (sometimes four) and you're out" system for determing when baaad things happen to Germany. Several types of targets will be present, and destroying all of one type will cause the bad event to happen:

Spoiler :


Ball Bearings
-Schweinfurt
-Brandenburg
-Karlsruhe
-Paris
Causes the obs. of SETI and gives Germany Navigation, reducing trade (production) bonuses

Electric Plant
-Chemnitz
-Brunswick
-Kassel
Gives Germany invention, reducing trade

Aircraft Factory
-Gotha
- Regensburg
-Stettin
-Pilsen
Causes obs. of Oracle for the Luftwaffe

Chemicals
-Mainz
-Friedrichshaven
-Saarbrucken
Gives Flight to Germany, reducing trade

Aviation Gas
-Brux
-Merseburg
-Magdeburg
-Mannheim
Causes the obs. of Michelangelo's Chapel for Luftwaffe

Oil
-Bielefeld
- Ruhland
-Linz
-Vienna
Permanently changes "fuel dump" to "fuel shortage" terrain nationally.

Railyards
-Dortmund
-Hamburg
-Berlin
-Nuremburg
-Frankfurt
-Paris

Destroyes RR's near the target city

Cities
A few less than before, same effect (destroys industry around the city).

 
Very welcome JPetroski. :) Your target list now looks even more interesting than before.

In USAAF nasty things not only can happen to the Germans, but to the USAAF, too. May be you are interested in the idea of "Political" targets in Gary Grigsby´s USAAF. I made you a scan of the manual concerning this concept.

Spoiler :


Another cool concept of that game were the option to giv the German aircraft the possibility to carry some rockets. When carrying these rockets they could do a much bigger damage to bombers, but were massively handicaped against allied fighters. I don´t know, if there is a possibilty to mod this in Civ 2, but I want to tell you about it, as it was much fun in gameplay.
 

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There's really only so much I can do with the Civ2 engine and limited numbers of units... I'm representing "heavy fighters" such as the Me-110 and Me-410 by giving them relatively high attack ratings, but very poor defenses, but that's about the best I can do to represent different armaments...

I don't think I have much space for political targets. Overlord is dependent on destroying a percentage of certain ones, however (railyards and aviation gas/oil ideally).

As it stands, my unit list is as follows:

Spoiler :


Luftwaffe
Me109G
Fw190A
Me109K
Fw190D
Ta152
Me110
Me410
Me163
Me262

USAAF
Spitfire
P-38
P-47C
P-47D
P-47M
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17E
B-17G
B-24
B-29



Regarding bad things happening to the USAAF

Spoiler :


I originally had wanted to take a cue from Germanicus and have a unit called "Bomber Losses" that could randomly spawn when a bomber was shot down. This unit would then drain valuable shields from the USAAF, thus lowering their combat capacity. There were several problems with this approach. The first is that it took tremendous events space, because you had to have a separate event for each desired unit for each desired city. The second, and more damning, is that "randomturn" appears to be checked at the start of each turn, rather than during each trigger. This means, for example, that if the event fires for one unit killed during that turn, it will fire for ALL units killed during that turn. Thus, rather than there truly being a 1/8 chance that each bomber killed would spawn a unit, there is a 1/8 chance that any given turn will allow the event, and a 100% chance that every bomber killed on THAT turn will spawn it. That just doesn't work.

So I'm somewhat at a loss for how to make bad things happen to the Americans. I could take away a wonder or two, but from what trigger? What can the Germans really do that would be so incredibly significant to justify that?

I do like very much like the idea of bomber losses (possibly forcing the USAAF to research "Propaganda Push" to clear the troublesome unit out?) but it would take SO much event space. The only way it may even possibly be feasible is to rename it "Heavy Losses" and just use the "AnyUnit" command, but then it tends to drift away from the real intention behind it...

 
Bad events for the USAAF: The Germans couldn´t do so much here. But the political opinion in the US can change, if such a target is missed and the US for example could fall in anarchy.

About the units: These are only 21. I guess the other units are all units for game mechanics. May be you post them here so I can have a look on them. A factory-unit, that is burning or exploding in Civ 2 ToT, looks better in the game than a unit that only dissapears. :) I´m also no friend of planes that are flying backwards to their targets. :D

The Me-163 Comet was a highly overestimated plane. It was dangerous -but only for its own crew. That plane only had 12 shotdowns in the complete WW II.
 
Yes, out of necessity, they are mostly game-mechanic units... Then again, there's really not much missing in terms of aircraft. Maybe another P-38 model, but they were never the main 8th Air Force fighter, and the scenario can do fine without them.

The 163 in this scenario is expensive to build but also the only unit capable of attacking numerous times in one turn. It has extremely limited range, however, so won't be attacking very far from its field. It also has terrible defensive stats, so catching it on the ground is a good tactic. Though it may not have been that effective in real life, I think it is a fun addition to the scenario.

The 262, on the other hand, is an extremely powerful unit that has the added benefit of being invisible to the Allies (to represent its extreme speed). If it can be intercepted, it is still difficult to destroy. Easily the most powerful fighter in the game.

I'm not certain how to force the U.S. into anarchy? But anyway, I think the U.S. will have enough of a challenge in that they start out heavily outnumbered. I'm considering giving the Luftwaffe regular, veteran, non-homed reinforcements continuously until the airplane factories and aviation gas facilities are destroyed too. I will have to see how this balances out. Regardless, 1-2 veteran units every few turns could make a big deal considering veteran status is only awarded via combat, and combat in the air generally means you must stay in the air damaged for the enemies' turn.

Anyway, here is the unit list:

Spoiler :

Supply Truck
TENO Brigade
Spitfire
P-38
P-47C
P-47D
P-47M
P-51B
Airfield
Raw Materials
P-51D
Bomber Losses********Still up in the air about this one********
B-26
B-17E
B-17G
B-24
B-29
Me109G
Me109K
Fw190A
Me410
Fw190D
Me110
Ta152
88mm Flak Burst
20mm Flak
Flak Tower
Radar Wave
Allied Army
German Army
Me163
Me262
Schweinfurt (BB)
Brandenburg (BB)
Karlsruhe (BB)
Paris (BB)
Chemnitz (Electric Power)
Brunswick (Electric Power)
Kassel (Electric Power)
Gotha (Aircraft)
Regensburg (Aircraft)
Stettin (Aircraft)
Pilsen (Aircraft)
Obertraubling (Me262)
Böbblingen (Me163)
Brux (Aviation Gas)
Merseburg (Aviation Gas)
Magdeburg (Aviation Gas)
Mannheim (Aviation Gas)
locomotive
Mainz (Chemicals)
Friedrichshaven (Chemicals)
Saarbrucken (Chemicals)
Bielefeld (Oil)
Ruhland (Oil)
Linz (Oil)
Vienna (Oil)
Dortmund Railyards
Hamburg Railyards
Berlin Railyards
Nuremburg Railyards
Frankfurt Railyards
Paris Railyards
Berlin - City
Dortmund - City
Hamburg - City
Dresden - City
Cologne - City
Essen - City
Düsseldorf - City
Duisburg - City
Bremen - City
Hannover - City
Munich - City
Nuremburg - City
Leipzig - City
Kiel - City
Lübeck - City
Rostock - City
Stuttgart - City



Edit - and although I certainly have no space for aesthetic things like burning factory UNITS... I do think you will be pleased to hear that factory TERRAIN will turn to rubble or burn :)
 
Great stuff. May I interject that the submarine flag (invisible) makes it impossible for units to attack over terrain that is not sea, meaning an air unit with this flag only attacks over sea tiles, at least in MGE.
 
Great stuff. May I interject that the submarine flag (invisible) makes it impossible for units to attack over terrain that is not sea, meaning an air unit with this flag only attacks over sea tiles, at least in MGE.

While true, this is not an issue in TOT, as there is a second invisibility modifier in Units Advanced. The unit does not have the submarine flag :)
 
- and although I certainly have no space for aesthetic things like burning factory UNITS...

An animated unit doesn´t need more space than an unanimated unit. :)

 
While agreed that animated units would be splendid, I don't have the required artistic ability to make them, and I couldn't ask anyone to invest that kind of time.

I imagine I will release the scenario with static units, and maybe someday enough animated units will be available to upgrade it?
 
I imagine I will release the scenario with static units, and maybe someday enough animated units will be available to upgrade it?

At present you have the animated units P-38, FW 190 A and the B-24 Liberator. There is a good chance that the Me-262 and the P-51 will follow soon, as these are more easy to convert Civ 3 PTW units - and animated units can be combined in a game without big problems with the remaining static Civ 2 units. :)
 
What would I have to make it easy to combine them at a later date? Anything specific?

- I've finally had a chance to work some on this scenario. It is tough considering how far I got only to be dissatisfied and want to start over. Nonetheless, the advances, improvements, and first half of the units (not advanced) are done in the rules. Once I get units advanced done, I can plug it in and see if it actually works :)
 
Welcome back update:)
But what dissatisfies you? We see them all nice :confused:

BTW let chat a little:
Just seen some documents saying that P-51s have a kill ratio of almost 10:1 in air combat:eek: The majority of P-51 lost are due to ground attack missions.
I don't know the details yet, guess this is USAAF "claims" rather than actual record, but even though this would be more or less reflecting Mustang's performance. Let say even if USAAF overclaimed by 2-3 times(likely not), that's still 3:1-5:1 advantage.
I know Mustang is a great fighter, but never knew it's such an huge advantage.
So if presented in game, it would be a balance breaker.
 
Many other factors went into that K/D ration aside from performance issues. On a purely performance basis, the Mustang was not some super plane. It was very good at what it had to do, but was no magic weapon.

I mean, when your nation is flying several thousand sorties on some days, and your enemy can only master a few hundred, it shouldn't be surprising that you will emerge with better stats. Further, when you have been trained for months, and your opponent for weeks (if that)... Etc., etc., That's going to skew some numbers.

P-51's will be present, and as in real life, their main benefit is range.

As for the animated units - I like, whenever possible, to have every unit in a scenario to have the same "look." I think those units are fantastic, but I only need a few extra non-animated units to complete the set, whereas I need several dozen animated ones.
 
clightning - rereading your post (and mine before it), I realize I'm an idiot who didn't answer your question properly :)

I was dissatisfied with the way the scenario looked and played with the RAF bombing campaign included. I did not have enough space to give them an honest representation that they deserved. I think they would be better off with a separate scenario (although, to be honest, I think that the best scenario the RAF could have in Civ2 would probably be a MP Battle of Britain).

Anyway, I decided to start all over just including the USAAF and Luftwaffe (and representing the RAF abstractly via techs).

As of now, the rules file is complete, and the map (including unit placement) is all set with the exception of the static targets, which are easy to mess up and need to be done s.l.o.w.l.y.

Once they are placed, I'll have to write the events, but aside from those two things, the scenario should be ready for at least an alpha test shortly (assuming I can avoid the endless "honey do list" ;) ).
 
Work continues to go well and much progress has been made. The events are 90% complete (I feel a few more text boxes would be useful), the rules are all set, the scenario is essentially a balancing alpha test or two away from being playable, if not pretty.

I still have improvement icons, sounds, and all text files not called rules or events to do, but these are all the icing.

Anyway, I'm going to start posting some screenshots from time to time. Here is preview #1, the industrial heart of the Ruhr:

Spoiler :


 
USAAF B-17's escorted by P-51D Mustangs make their way towards the Ruhr, but two German Me109K fighters are ready to intercept!
Spoiler :



This scenario is pretty much ready for (ugly) playtesting.
 
The cross-hair units presumably represent the bomber's targets. Do they randomly change to represent different raids? Looks intriguing!
 
Welcome back update:)
But what dissatisfies you? We see them all nice :confused:

BTW let chat a little:
Just seen some documents saying that P-51s have a kill ratio of almost 10:1 in air combat:eek: The majority of P-51 lost are due to ground attack missions.
I don't know the details yet, guess this is USAAF "claims" rather than actual record, but even though this would be more or less reflecting Mustang's performance. Let say even if USAAF overclaimed by 2-3 times(likely not), that's still 3:1-5:1 advantage.
I know Mustang is a great fighter, but never knew it's such an huge advantage.
So if presented in game, it would be a balance breaker.

John's comments about the relative quality of pilots and air superiority between the USAAF and Luftwaffe hit the nail squarely on the head on the question of kill-loss ratios, rather than the P-51 being a massively better fighter than anything Germany had. If you check out the performance of a P-51D, Spitfire XIV and FW-190D, the 190D and Spitfire have better acceleration, max ceiling, weight of lead thrown at the enemy, turn-rate and climb-rate than the Mustang. All three were appreciably better than most other fighters of the time (excluding of course the new jets!). The Mustang had fantastic range, well-trained pilots with good tactics, and a massive advantage of numbers over the late-war Luftwaffe.
 
The cross-hair units presumably represent the bomber's targets. Do they randomly change to represent different raids? Looks intriguing!

Well, they do represent targets, but they do not randomly change.

The basic formula of this scenario is that to win, the Allies must take a number of German cities, BUT the Allies cannot produce ground units until the Air Force has triggered D-Day (by destroying a set number of targets).

Events don't really prompt the player in this scenario. The targets are all there from the start, and it is up to the Allied player to figure out how to destroy them, whereas the German player must prevent this.

Here is the "Playtester Readme" for more information:

Spoiler :

Over the Reich
A Scenario for Civilization II: Test of Time
By John P. Petroski
2011

INTRODUCTION

Over the Reich is scenario that attempts to depict the United States Army Air Force’s daylight bombing campaign of Nazi Germany during World War II. Though the Royal Air Force no doubt played a great role in the war, their nighttime operations are represented abstractly in this scenario (see the section: “RAF Bombing Campaign” below).

This scenario utilizes two maps. The first is “low level” and the second is “high level.” Often, attacking a target at the high level will directly affect the low level situation.

This scenario is only meant to be played against another human being. The AI handles air units atrociously, and as far as I can tell, rarely (if ever) makes use of the secondary map.

There are four civs that must be played by two players:

Team 1: The Jagdflieger and Germany
Team 2: The USAAF and Britain

It is unnecessary to play as the Europeans. They have nothing to do and can be left to the AI.


ALLIED OBJECTIVES

The British are the protagonists of this scenario, and their objective is to liberate the continent. They will be scored according to the Civ2 objectives system. However, it is important to note that the British cannot build offensive ground units until after D-Day occurs. D-Day will only happen if the USAAF destroys enough German targets.

Throughout Germany (specifically, throughout the secondary, “high altitude” map), there are several “targets” that the USAAF can raid. These are divided into two broad categories, and several sub categories. The broad categories are “Primary” and “Secondary” targets.

Primary Targets:

A supermajority of the following types of targets must be destroyed to trigger the D-Day landings. In addition to triggering D-Day, destroying all of a certain type of target will generally have an adverse effect on German industry or Luftwaffe morale (an exception are the sub pens, which merely serve to contribute towards the D-Day threshold). These are considered the Allied player’s primary targets.

Ball Bearings (BB)
Electrical Power (EP)
Aircraft Factories (AC)
Aviation Gas Dispensaries (AG)
Chemical Production (CH)
Oil Production Facilities (Oil)
Submarine Pens (SUB)

Secondary Targets:

Destroying secondary targets will help you achieve your primary objectives, because they will severely hinder Germany’s ability to oppose you. Each of four types of secondary targets has a unique effect:

Railroad Marshalling Yards (RR) – Destroying these units will cause the surrounding terrain to change, thus wiping any railroad lines in the area and hindering the German economy. These units will respawn, allowing the target to be attacked again later.

Major Cities (no symbol) – Destroying the center of a major German city will cause the terrain to change nearby, destroying that city’s industry and making it harder for Germany to produce new units. The RAF can also attack German cities indirectly (see below).

Economic Units – Economic units include raw materials, locomotives, and supply trains. Destroying these will hinder the German economy and make it difficult for them to reinforce their fighter squadrons (very important—read up on Germany’s economy below)!

Military Units – The German Flakkorps can cause massive problems for your airmen. Each flak battery city will produce a flak burst every few turns. The 88mm batteries can shoot projectiles into the high altitude map, whereas the smaller flak batteries can only attack units at low altitude. Flak tends to be fiercer at low levels, as there are more batteries, and the flak does more damage since it is easier for it to hit your aircraft. It may pay dividends to suppress these batteries before they can fire their rounds (after a few turns, they can have quite the stockpile)! Further, the Germans have a “German Army” ground unit to oppose your eventual landings. Destroying these as you find them can only help you in the long run.

RAF BOMBING CAMPAIGN

As previously stated, the RAF bombing campaign is represented abstractly in this scenario. Britain has a tech tree that features many techs named things like, “Target Berlin.” Researching this will change much of Berlin’s terrain from urban to “firestorm,” requiring fixing by German engineers.

The events are designed to take the tech back from the British after a few turns, enabling you to hit the same cities more than once.

The German player cannot stop British raids. Their best hope is to delay them as best they can by destroying British locomotives (trade units that speed scientific advances).

GERMAN OBJECTIVE

The German player’s objective is to prevent the Allies from invading the continent. Failing that, the objective is to hold as many cities as possible until the end of the scenario!

German Defenses:

The skies of Germany are defended by the Flakkorps (under German control) and the Luftwaffe (Jagdflieger). Both will be necessary to thwart the USAAF. Generally, you will want your flak bursts to soften enemy units for your fighters to then prey upon. If you can hold off on attacking until after the bombers are outside of fighter range, all the better!

You will initially enjoy air superiority, as it will take some time for the USAAF to build its strength. Beware: this is not likely to last for long!

German Economy:

The German economy works very differently in this scenario than in a regular game of Civ2. There are no “vanilla” industrial improvements available, and science takes the place of production. The faster you research, the more units can be built! This is accomplished via different stages:

Stage 1 – Events causes the “raw materials” unit to pop up in occupied Europe under German control.

Stage 2 – The raw materials unit is brought inside a major German city, where it is disbanded to help build a locomotive (freight) unit.

Stage 3 – The locomotive is sent to various cities (Jagdflieger, European, or German) where its trade revenue will increase the science beakers for Germany.

Stage 4 – These science beakers help Germany research “Production Run North, South, East, West.” Researching these techs creates “Supplies” that are controlled by the JAGDFLIEGER.

Stage 5 – The Jagdflieger bring the “supplies” units into their airfields, disbanding them to use their shields to help produce units (which are normally very expensive)!

The extreme importance of your infrastructure should now be obvious! Allied attacks will ravage your cities and destroy your rail track. It is critical that you repair these as soon as possible with your TENO brigades! Keep your supply lines open at all costs!
 
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