Over the Reich - Prof. Garfield vs. JPetroski

[JPetroski]

I'll have to change the code for damaged B17s, since they gain full movement points when created by flak damage, so they can immediately fly away. I think I neglected to set a home city for them as well. Should they be just NONE, or should they be homed to the city of the original bomber?

Yes I think that should be the case, being shot up is no reason they shouldn't have their old home base.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 17.

I haven't done much commentary in the video after the first few turns. I'm starting to wonder if there is a point in continuing to put them up.

 

[JPetroski]

I haven't done much commentary in the video after the first few turns. I'm starting to wonder if there is a point in continuing to put them up.

I received some feedback on my channel that post-turn commentary is more useful so while I have a few "action" videos (such as turns where there is a large air battle) I typically have been talking after the fact. I'm also now going to condense turns 14-17 into one video since not much has happened and I'll just be discussing overall strategy.

I would submit the following:

If you have enough videos up that showcase the speed of turns and the cool features in the scenario, you probably don't need a video just for the sake of having a video and I think you might also do what I'm doing and just have "check in" films from time to time describing major updates. To the extent that you launch a massive raid at some point perhaps you film that and discuss your escort strategy, etc.

When the playtest is done, what I really need from you is your thought process, the things you found helpful, the things you didn't bother with and why. Frankly, I think both of us are comfortable enough writing that it would probably be faster just to have each of us write a little essay with our thoughts than review hours upon hours of video... I think the video mostly helps others (especially those who will never find this forum).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I accidentally landed a photo-recon plane on a carrier. I must have activated it from the city screen, and the previous unit was a hurricane or spitfire. I don't know if it will even matter, I'll have to check if the range is restored when the plane lands or when it takes off. In any case, I'm pretty sure I could have made it to an airbase anyway.

I'll have a thought about your video advice, and think about what change to make. Maybe an after-action briefing with footage to make things interesting. I don't want to get too involved, since that is what made me abandon civ videos before.

 

[JPetroski]

Turn 18 - all quiet on the western front... too quiet?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Updated events. Damaged B17s should now have the correct home city and movement points.

Units killed when a Military Port is destroyed should now appear in the combat log (though I now realize I didn't test this).

When the game is loaded, the map centers on Sweden, at least it should if there are no active units.

First turn after production has a message reminding the player to set 'always wait at end of turn' option.

 

[JPetroski]

When the game is loaded, the map centers on Sweden, at least it should if there are no active units.

Great idea.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 20.

 

[JPetroski]

Turn 20

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'm cutting the deadline for 225 points and a battle group fairly close.

I discovered that damaged B17s can actually drop bombs. I suppose this is reasonable, if for no other reason than it allows an ambushed attack to be salvaged somewhat, but we should probably only let the bomber drop one bomb. Otherwise, it might actually be more advantageous to have a bomber be damaged than fresh, especially given the automatic veteran status bestowed.

Only in the last couple turns did I remember to start putting fuel dumps on my refineries.

Edit: The save

 

[JPetroski]

I discovered that damaged B17s can actually drop bombs. I suppose this is reasonable, if for no other reason than it allows an ambushed attack to be salvaged somewhat, but we should probably only let the bomber drop one bomb. Otherwise, it might actually be more advantageous to have a bomber be damaged than fresh, especially given the automatic veteran status bestowed.

That's an error. A damaged B-17 should not be able to drop bombs at all - those represent stragglers completely knocked out of formation. The Germans have the option of letting them return home to focus on active threats but then they have to worry about the air crews coming back stronger. The tactical decision would get totally jumbled if they drop bombs too.

Believe me, by about turn 40-50 you're going to have more bombers than you know what to do with and any raids that get ambushed will be one. I've attached a save with the munitions edited (--) out for those two bombers.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

That's an error. A damaged B-17 should not be able to drop bombs at all - those represent stragglers completely knocked out of formation. The Germans have the option of letting them return home to focus on active threats but then they have to worry about the air crews coming back stronger. The tactical decision would get totally jumbled if they drop bombs too.

Believe me, by about turn 40-50 you're going to have more bombers than you know what to do with and any raids that get ambushed will be one. I've attached a save with the munitions edited (--) out for those two bombers.

That's fine. It looks like my tactic of engaging over Holland hasn't worked very well. Or, I should have gathered more fighters before trying. One of the two.

 

[JPetroski]

That's fine. It looks like my tactic of engaging over Holland hasn't worked very well. Or, I should have gathered more fighters before trying. One of the two.

Well, you are fighting at extreme range still. My interceptors have a major advantage in that they get flak support, and can go and attack twice or so while still landing and being (more or less) impervious. I would imagine most of your fighters can attack once at that range (if at all) and then you're relying on reactive attacks to defend the bombers. So, it's tough going for you.

With that said, all of your bombers can be built with one train and you should start getting many, many trains from the Battle of the Atlantic. Also, your cities are clumped close together, so you start cranking out many reinforcements each turn. In contrast, my least expensive fighters still cost 2 trains each and I won't receive anywhere near as many...

The short game seems to favor the Germans (we have killed a ton of aircraft) but I am not liking my long range prospects. We'll see though!

 

[Prof. Garfield]

With that said, all of your bombers can be built with one train and you should start getting many, many trains from the Battle of the Atlantic. Also, your cities are clumped close together, so you start cranking out many reinforcements each turn. In contrast, my least expensive fighters still cost 2 trains each and I won't receive anywhere near as many...

Yes, I can see that the future looks reasonably bright. There were a few turns in the last playtest where I felt rather demoralized after bomber losses, but I don't have that feeling here. It looks like I won't get the first Battle Group reinforcement, however. On the other hand, that seems a fair trade for an early attack on port facilities to gain advantage in the Battle of the Atlantic. (At least, I think I've pretty much won. Maybe you're lulling me into a false sense of security...)

On that topic, there are a couple airbases that are producing Sunderlands, even though I don't have the tech for this. I presume this is on purpose, and not an oversight. However, at the moment, I can't temporarily switch to something else. Should I change the events so that those airbases can produce Sunderlands even if the tech is not available?

 

[JPetroski]

Yes, I can see that the future looks reasonably bright. There were a few turns in the last playtest where I felt rather demoralized after bomber losses, but I don't have that feeling here. It looks like I won't get the first Battle Group reinforcement, however. On the other hand, that seems a fair trade for an early attack on port facilities to gain advantage in the Battle of the Atlantic. (At least, I think I've pretty much won. Maybe you're lulling me into a false sense of security...)

I'd say the early game is balanced about where I want it/envisioned it. We'll see how mid- and late-game go, but I do think attacking deep targets beyond escort range should yield horrifying losses prompting you to build escorts that can bring the bombers home (I do note you haven't moved past the 14 bombers lost mark yet though). You do have targets in France where you can build some experience, test some things out, and get a better return on the Battle of the Atlantic as a reward, but you really don't have enough targets there to earn Battle Groups.

The first Battle Group is very hard to get (probably not impossible, as you're only 17 points away with two turns to do it) but in my mind that is a good thing because it should theoretically delay a serious invasion until at least mid-game. I'm basically going for:

Battle Group 1: Difficult to achieve
Battle Group 2: Depending on how things go, you would think this would be easier to get as the build-up is done, but it's still not guaranteed
Battle Group 3 and onward: Should almost be shoe-ins

I think this also gives the German player a little bit of hope and a way to break down the game into little 225 point segments. The better you do early, the longer you likely delay D-Day.

On that topic, there are a couple airbases that are producing Sunderlands, even though I don't have the tech for this. I presume this is on purpose, and not an oversight. However, at the moment, I can't temporarily switch to something else. Should I change the events so that those airbases can produce Sunderlands even if the tech is not available?

That's by design. My playtests against myself convinced me that if the Germans were to invest in 2 or 3 aircraft carriers off the bat, move their 109s over to France, and build a ton of Stukas, they could seize control of the Battle of the Atlantic. I figured if I made Sunderlands available in a city or two (but they HAD to be built there or you'd have to wait for the tech), then the Allied player would have to choose if they want to keep investing in those or swap them out, but if they invested, they'd have a better chance of keeping control in the Atlantic.

I didn't ultimately go with the aircraft carrier tactic here for three reasons: (1) It is quite a resource drain and I didn't have the luxury against you that I had against myself (knowing darn well I would not be invading "X"); (2) The implementation of the Experten point scoring system means I don't need to sink freighters to get my "hero" units; (3) Even if I sunk every freighter, which is unlikely, I still think the Allies would build up their strength in England relatively quickly, especially under your guidance.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Will reply to the information later.

I'm starting to think that Spitfire ammo is possibly a bit too strong.

 

[JPetroski]

I'm starting to think that Spitfire ammo is possibly a bit too strong.

But would you have a reason to build them if it wasn't?

I found this error attacking your bombers down by Bordeaux:

Welcome to the TOTPP Lua console.
Running Lua 5.3.1  Copyright (C) 1994-2015 Lua.org, PUC-Rio

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Over the Reich
Events.lua parsed successfully at 11/08/19 09:18:09

268, 86, 2
126, 144, 1
D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:6035: attempt to index a nil value (local 'tile')
stack traceback:
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:6035: in upvalue 'moveForbiddenDefenders'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:6106: in upvalue 'uncoverTarget'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:7543: in function <D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:7215>

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I found this error attacking your bombers down by Bordeaux:

Fixed.

But would you have a reason to build them if it wasn't?

I think they should have stronger ammo than the P47, but I've made several one shot kills with them, and I don't even think they were veteran.

If you didn't realize, I was operating my Spitfires near Holland from a carrier, so that is another reason to use them, to potentially extend escort range. I don't know how far I'd be willing to operate a carrier from home, though.

I struggle to find the use for the Hurricane. It's not very useful as a fighter, because enemies can avoid a Hurricane counter attack by climbing after making an attack. Maybe when I need to start clearing out flak, or something, it will reveal itself more useful.

I'd say the early game is balanced about where I want it/envisioned it. We'll see how mid- and late-game go, but I do think attacking deep targets beyond escort range should yield horrifying losses prompting you to build escorts that can bring the bombers home (I do note you haven't moved past the 14 bombers lost mark yet though). You do have targets in France where you can build some experience, test some things out, and get a better return on the Battle of the Atlantic as a reward, but you really don't have enough targets there to earn Battle Groups.

The first Battle Group is very hard to get (probably not impossible, as you're only 17 points away with two turns to do it) but in my mind that is a good thing because it should theoretically delay a serious invasion until at least mid-game. I'm basically going for:

Battle Group 1: Difficult to achieve
Battle Group 2: Depending on how things go, you would think this would be easier to get as the build-up is done, but it's still not guaranteed
Battle Group 3 and onward: Should almost be shoe-ins

I think this also gives the German player a little bit of hope and a way to break down the game into little 225 point segments. The better you do early, the longer you likely delay D-Day.

OK, that makes sense. However, that means that the Allies will likely only have 4-5 battle groups to invade with, which seems a little too low compared to what the Germans have. I suppose the point is to compensate with air power. So, we'll have to see.

That's by design. My playtests against myself convinced me that if the Germans were to invest in 2 or 3 aircraft carriers off the bat, move their 109s over to France, and build a ton of Stukas, they could seize control of the Battle of the Atlantic. I figured if I made Sunderlands available in a city or two (but they HAD to be built there or you'd have to wait for the tech), then the Allied player would have to choose if they want to keep investing in those or swap them out, but if they invested, they'd have a better chance of keeping control in the Atlantic.

I didn't ultimately go with the aircraft carrier tactic here for three reasons: (1) It is quite a resource drain and I didn't have the luxury against you that I had against myself (knowing darn well I would not be invading "X"); (2) The implementation of the Experten point scoring system means I don't need to sink freighters to get my "hero" units; (3) Even if I sunk every freighter, which is unlikely, I still think the Allies would build up their strength in England relatively quickly, especially under your guidance.

I'm not sure how Sunderlands would fare against German Atlantic Carriers. The counter to that would seem to be to bring in the Task Forces and carriers of your own.

I'm inclined to think that we need unit types like 'carrier trained spitfire' that can use carriers, while the regular can't. Because now, I can move all my spitfires to carrier duty if I want, which doesn't seem to reasonable. However, I don't really want to get rid of the experten units, because, as we've said before, Germany needs something 'fun'.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Actually, there is a much simpler solution to the problem of moving tons of units onto carriers: just limit space on carriers. After production, check each carrier, and delete any aircraft on the tile that exceed the carrier's capacity. If a carrier can only carry three planes, for example, then their air power is inherently limited unless tons are built, which would be expensive. I suppose this could lead to a problem of 'juggling' aircraft on the carrier, in order to have 2 or 3 times the complement of aircraft.

 

[JPetroski]

We have room for a sea fire without needing to get rid of the Experten but if you really aren't using the hurricane we could always repurpose that slot instead. They're basically meant for taking out radar installations as they don't carry large enough bombs to do much else.