Over the Reich - Prof. Garfield vs. JPetroski

[Prof. Garfield]

I don't think it makes much sense for only spitfires to require a special unit to use the carriers. I was thinking along the lines of all (or most) carrier aircraft having 'carrier trained' versions. I think a capacity limit for carriers would adequately prevent exploits.

I don't know that removing the hurricane is a good idea. It seems like it has to be there in case its services are needed, even though I don't use/need them. For example, they would be best, I think, for attacking carriers and task forces. They might also be necessary if Germany puts effort into Wolfpacks and contesting the Atlantic, though Sunderlands are probably better.

I would probably like hurricanes a lot more if they could climb to high altitude. Then, they could be a 'compromise' between the Spitfires and A20s. Maybe they should be given high altitude capability, but only drop bombs at low altitude.

 

[JPetroski]

Turn 26

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'm thinking it might be useful to have an 'event' that lets the player place two 'marker units' on the map and measure the distance between them. Although, now that I think about it, that would give vision, which we don't want. I could make the event just work by selecting two squares, but that might be less convenient for the player.

 

[JPetroski]

I'm thinking it might be useful to have an 'event' that lets the player place two 'marker units' on the map and measure the distance between them. Although, now that I think about it, that would give vision, which we don't want. I could make the event just work by selecting two squares, but that might be less convenient for the player.

That would definitely be helpful but I wonder if as at least a compromise (and possibly a more convenient one) if we devoted a key that would call up a menu almost like the strategic redeployment system, where all the cities are listed and you could see the distance between your unit and that city. It wouldn't give you the distance between two random tiles but would probably be a useful approximation. At the very least, it would help you stay out of interceptor range.

Another thing that I would find useful is if in the combat reporting field, when you drill down to tile, it would be great if the map centered on that tile.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Another thing that I would find useful is if in the combat reporting field, when you drill down to tile, it would be great if the map centered on that tile.

That is supposed to happen, but the centerView function doesn't seem to change maps (or, at least not consistently), so there isn't much I can do.

 

[JPetroski]

Turn 28.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 29

 

[JPetroski]

Turn 29

Your tactic of using P-47s as high cover for your bombers is very interesting. I wasn't able to get much done against the tactic (well, aside from shooting down a couple planes with flak).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 30

 

[JPetroski]

Turn 30

I will point out to anyone observing that we have been playing for 10 days and have already covered 30 turns. I think the efforts we've put into making turns go faster by reducing quartermaster duties whenever possible have paid off so far. We'll see how it stands up as the number of units increases, and when D-Day commences, but for now at least we seem to be making good progress.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 31

 

[JPetroski]

German Turn 31

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Turn 32

 

[JPetroski]

OK, that makes sense. However, that means that the Allies will likely only have 4-5 battle groups to invade with, which seems a little too low compared to what the Germans have. I suppose the point is to compensate with air power. So, we'll have to see.

I do think if you have air superiority you can pretty much box my army groups in until your army groups come attack me. If you figure 8x low-alt fighters plus 8x high-alt fighters to dive would be difficult to break through. In any event, it would cost me considerable forces to try. If this proves optimistic, I wouldn't be opposed to giving the Allies 2x battle groups for the 3rd reinforcement wave onward (I do think the first 2 should only grant 1 so that we can have a bit of an air war prior to D-Day starting).

That is supposed to happen, but the centerView function doesn't seem to change maps (or, at least not consistently), so there isn't much I can do.

I think I was drilling down to region instead of tile by mistake - it seems to work pretty well overall.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I do think if you have air superiority you can pretty much box my army groups in until your army groups come attack me. If you figure 8x low-alt fighters plus 8x high-alt fighters to dive would be difficult to break through. In any event, it would cost me considerable forces to try. If this proves optimistic, I wouldn't be opposed to giving the Allies 2x battle groups for the 3rd reinforcement wave onward (I do think the first 2 should only grant 1 so that we can have a bit of an air war prior to D-Day starting).

That makes sense, but maybe we need to do something about such blocking force. Maybe give the battle group the attack air ability, but re-create any destroyed air units a couple squares away.

I noticed that Military Port units have only 20hp, while the other strategic targets have 30. That would explain why ports seemed easier to destroy (and I was occasionally surprised when similar force didn't do much to other targets). Is this deliberate, or an oversight?

So, I just completed Operation Gomorrah, and that raises a few issues.

1. The bombers received were all NONE, which probably shouldn't be the case. I made a mistake and took them out of the airfield via a ctrl move, so none were activated and got a home city. This delayed my attack by a turn, and the schedule is fairly tight. Even if I had homed them all, they probably wouldn't have all been able to be supported by a single airbase, so the event will either have to space them out over a few airfields, or just give them different home cities.

This makes me think that the 're-home' function shouldn't be onActivation, but rather in a loop after production. Maybe with on activate also, just to be safe and to warn if a unit wasn't re-homed.

2. I was desperate enough to get bombers through to Hamburg that I sent beaufighters on a one way trip to provide extra protection. This doesn't really feel like a 'legitimate' tactic, and I'm wondering if we should do something to stop it. Best I can think of is to delete the unit if it is activated beyond its theoretical maximum operating radius. It would be easy if we had access to the field that governs range...

Based on the losses I've had at night, it would seem to me that the 'correct' strategy might just be to send bombers on a long detour, attack, and then just let them run out of fuel.

3. After worrying so much about getting enough force to Hamburg, a single Ace Halifax was able to destroy the special target. This doesn't seem to be a fluke, since two other Halifaxes each killed an urban unit in Kiel (the third took two or three planes). Perhaps this is balanced by the difficulty of getting aces for night bombers.

We have the option of overriding the regular battle sequence when using bombs. Instead of relying on regular combat, we could make it so that a bomb has, say, a 50-50 chance of doing 4 damage. Then, things could be balanced more precisely. Maybe a veteran has a 60-40 chance of achieving this.

 

[JPetroski]

I have to go catch Midway so I won't be able to play until a little later but well done with Gomorrah - will chew on what you said and respond later in more detail.

 

[JPetroski]

There seems to be a bug with the radar after Hamburg was obliterated:

Created Refinery III unit at 338,72,1
Changed terrain at 338,72,0 to type -122
Changed terrain at 338,72,1 to type 6
Changed terrain at 338,72,2 to type -124
Created Industry III unit at 352,88,1
Changed terrain at 352,88,0 to type 8
Changed terrain at 352,88,1 to type 8
Changed terrain at 352,88,2 to type 4
D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:164: attempt to index a nil value (field '?')
stack traceback:
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:164: in upvalue 'placeRadarMarker'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:264: in function 'radar.radarSweep'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:2759: in upvalue 'doAllRadar'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:2796: in upvalue 'activateAllRadar'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:7236: in function <D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:7217>

I noticed that Military Port units have only 20hp, while the other strategic targets have 30. That would explain why ports seemed easier to destroy (and I was occasionally surprised when similar force didn't do much to other targets). Is this deliberate, or an oversight?

It's an oversight. I'll have to fix it soon but I'm just too tired now.

Based on the losses I've had at night, it would seem to me that the 'correct' strategy might just be to send bombers on a long detour, attack, and then just let them run out of fuel.

I have an idea for how to "fix" night operations, which I feel are currently not working well. I think that aircraft at night should have a chance to "evade" if they are attacked and are not killed by enemy aircraft (so any of the guns packages). What I mean by that is this:

1. Let's assume a Ju88C attacks a Stirling.
2. If the Ju88C shoots the Stirling down (kills it), that is just that - it is shot down.
3. If the Ju88C only damages the Stirling, the Stirling is teleported to a nearby, random tile with the same amount of hitpoints.
4. If the Stirling has greater than 75% hitpoints left, it evades two tiles (meaning, it will pick a tile at least two squares away, but random direction).
5. If it has greater than 25% hitpoints left, it only evades one tile.
6. If it has less than 25% hitpoints it is considered so badly damaged that it won't evade.
7. If the aircraft evades, there is a pop up box that says, "We've attacked an enemy aircraft, but only damaged it! It escapes into the night!"

This could be the "gimmick" that the RAF Bombers have since they aren't as tough as USAAF bombers. I can tell you that if they get away even 1-2 spaces and need to be "re-found" there is a good chance more will survive. My 110s will most likely achieve a complete destruction, but the RAF bombers can outrun the 110s so that is balanced. The Ju88's usually just damage enemy bombers, so I think a lot more would get through. Also, this would make airborne radar much more useful to find the stream again.

I've been trying to figure out a way to try and mimic the cloak of night and I think this might be the way to do it. I would also submit that this should probably be done for all "true" night fighters:

1. Beaufighter
2. Mosquito NF Mk II
3. Mosquito NF Mk XIII
4. Ju88C
5. Ju88G
6. He219

3. After worrying so much about getting enough force to Hamburg, a single Ace Halifax was able to destroy the special target. This doesn't seem to be a fluke, since two other Halifaxes each killed an urban unit in Kiel (the third took two or three planes). Perhaps this is balanced by the difficulty of getting aces for night bombers.

We may have an issue with bomb strength now that it is veterans, but I don't want to call that just yet because I want to see how you do for points. I think there are a few soft targets left for you but I think you're going to need to go deeper into Germany soon if you want battle groups, and you'll run into stiff opposition. It might turn out that the veteran bombs are balanced.

Given that the historic targets are so important perhaps they could use a little strength boost but let's see.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

There seems to be a bug with the radar after Hamburg was obliterated:

I think I've fixed the bug, but please try the radar sweep for your last turn again just to check. The error has nothing to do with Hamburg, but is a consequence of detecting a unit on the edge of the map.

I have an idea for how to "fix" night operations, which I feel are currently not working well. I think that aircraft at night should have a chance to "evade" if they are attacked and are not killed by enemy aircraft (so any of the guns packages). What I mean by that is this:

1. Let's assume a Ju88C attacks a Stirling.
2. If the Ju88C shoots the Stirling down (kills it), that is just that - it is shot down.
3. If the Ju88C only damages the Stirling, the Stirling is teleported to a nearby, random tile with the same amount of hitpoints.
4. If the Stirling has greater than 75% hitpoints left, it evades two tiles (meaning, it will pick a tile at least two squares away, but random direction).
5. If it has greater than 25% hitpoints left, it only evades one tile.
6. If it has less than 25% hitpoints it is considered so badly damaged that it won't evade.
7. If the aircraft evades, there is a pop up box that says, "We've attacked an enemy aircraft, but only damaged it! It escapes into the night!"

This could be the "gimmick" that the RAF Bombers have since they aren't as tough as USAAF bombers. I can tell you that if they get away even 1-2 spaces and need to be "re-found" there is a good chance more will survive. My 110s will most likely achieve a complete destruction, but the RAF bombers can outrun the 110s so that is balanced. The Ju88's usually just damage enemy bombers, so I think a lot more would get through. Also, this would make airborne radar much more useful to find the stream again.

I've been trying to figure out a way to try and mimic the cloak of night and I think this might be the way to do it. I would also submit that this should probably be done for all "true" night fighters:

1. Beaufighter
2. Mosquito NF Mk II
3. Mosquito NF Mk XIII
4. Ju88C
5. Ju88G
6. He219

I really like this idea, and I'll implement it when I get the chance. Should the bombers lose their payload if they evade?

 

[JPetroski]

I've included a rules tweak that addresses the ports and gives them the same hp as all other targets. No other changes at this time.

Should the bombers lose their payload if they evade?

I'm inclined to say no because then all I'd have to do is attack a bomber to get it to drop payload. I'm pretty sure they're currently listed in the units that drop less bombs if damaged, anyway.

Also, I think German bombers should be included in the evasion but only on the night map. Frankly, I think it's another module that would see use in other ways so you might just give an option for which map the unit will evade on similar to which map it'll react on.

I think I've fixed the bug, but please try the radar sweep for your last turn again just to check. The error has nothing to do with Hamburg, but is a consequence of detecting a unit on the edge of the map.

The sweep works but I'm getting a bug trying to remove the radar markers now:

132, 142, 1
132, 142, 1
132, 142, 1
132, 142, 1
185, 73, 0
155, 71, 0
D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:216: attempt to index a nil value (field '?')
stack traceback:
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:216: in function 'radar.removeRadarMarker'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:281: in function 'radar.removeAllRadarMarkers'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\radar.lua:303: in function 'radar.askToRemoveRadarMarker'
    D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:7670: in function <D:\Test of Time\Scenario\OTR\events.lua:7217>

As an aside can you please add the neutral territory unit to the list of units that can't be detected by radar? I didn't know if you were in the middle of the events file so I didn't tweak it but they get picked up which is annoying/bad data/buggy.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'll always make changes to the event file before I post my turn, unless I specifically advise you otherwise. So, don't feel obligated to postpone a bugfix.

Changelog:
Fixed edge of map radar again. Hopefully fully fixed now.

unitAliases.neutralTerritory = civ.getUnitType(106)

RIDT[unitAliases.neutralTerritory.id]=intruder.radarInvisible