P666-01 Fix the Trash Game

[cabert]

About the Roster, if I understood right the following people already expressed interest in another game:
- VuDu (honneur aux dames)
- Armstrong
- Calavente
- Cam_h
- Mice
- Pigswill
- Cabert,

making an already good roster!
Petrucci? still with us?

The rest is getting clear now :
- Monarch,
- normal speed,
- running for a space race (certainly not boring in this format),
- no specific restrictions (other than victory goal)
- no specific settings (= continents, no raging barbs, no agressive AI, not picking our opponents)

For the leader, I propose Montezuma (one less nutty AI out there+spi). I like Isabella too, but we just finished a game with an expansive leader. Let's change!

VuDu : i second Pigswill's opinions. I rarely give up a game. Surviving is sometimes a challenge per se, giving you occasions to fight wars as underdog and to focus on diplomacy. When (it's not always so) you manage to win a game shaped game, I can tell you it's a great feeling.
My last game was this warlords, monarch game. I fought all my wars as underdog, with the exception of the last run to domination.

 

[Cam_H]

We're going to cream this game without some handicap or self-imposed variant.

Didn't you pick the last leader?

 

[cabert]

We're going to cream this game without some handicap or self-imposed variant.

Didn't you pick the last leader?

i thought you wouldn't remember

 

[mice]

I notice that this thread has over 4000 views, which means there are some interested players following it. I'll repeat my plea to any noble /Prince level players who want to participate. Post and show your interest if you want an opportunity to learn from these guys. I dont mind lurking and playing a shadow game if it means someone else can get involved. Dont be shy.


Question. Can an artist do a culture bomb in a city which is still in revolt? I did it in one of my newly conquered cities and there was no movement in the borders.

 

[cabert]

Question. Can an artist do a culture bomb in a city which is still in revolt? I did it in one of my newly conquered cities and there was no movement in the borders.

yes, and it does instantly stop the revolt
But very often, it's not enough to counter ancient surrounding culture.
That's why i mostly do it on the last city i capture from an AI.

 

[Calavente]

Calavente - no Cultural win?
Cabert - one Space Win?
I think 80% of my victories come from them!

You know, I stated once that I had only 3-4 victories... 2 space race, 1 domination and 1 or 2 diplo.
As VuDu I usually abandonned my other games after 200turns or so. Mostly because I didn't felt interested in it.

The weekly pace for the "save the trash game" is a strong motivator to play, not too much to allow for regular life, but still with enough reminder so that you don't just forget the game/ you don't get bored with it.

Furthermore it allows to try things I am not confortable with, just to be the best, but knowing that if it doesn't work, the worst that can happen is to be chosen to be the next game.

next game:

space-ship : why not : (the one I did were "back-of-the-door" victories : don't want a war, techleader : too late for cultural, lets go for diplo + space: oups, not enough friends for diplo : won by launching). Playing from the start for it will be fun.

Monarch : ok. never played at monarch. as I can't even tell I'm good a prince, I will be a real noob for monarch.

Leaders : as you whish.

Map : reading the ALC games, it seems to me that continent can be ok, but that it is a map mostly made for warmongerers : it seems the trick is to take-over your continent and then go for the victory you want. Kinda repetitive no? But if you think it best it's ok.

@mice : for my game, I did some things I would never have tried if I were playing alone :
-go to war without an overwhelming force, (just with a superior one but not a 5 to 1)
-attack ceasar in the middle of the continent at the risk of being caught in the back by it two brothers in faith,
-I went to caste system with lots of artists to rush a lot the land grab both in roman lands and in our continent.
-I even build cities on ice/desert without any other prospect than going to pop1-3 and then have 1-2artist and grab ice... (never done that before)
-I even traded miliary tech (steel) with mansa just to get more points with techs. (ok, I traded it only when I was at 62% so he wasn't able to build cannons by the time I reach 64%, but it was still so against my common sense..)

I was so sure I wasn't able to win before 1800 that my reaching of 60% in the 1700s was a good surprise.

Question. Can an artist do a culture bomb in a city which is still in revolt? I did it in one of my newly conquered cities and there was no movement in the borders.

as cabert said but even if it doesn't always push border back, it is extremly useful to grab the land when you crushed the surrounding cities... allowing them to have german land in at least one direction and giving you a lot of territory very quickly instead of waiting many turns.

 

[VuDu]

I'm bringing up the rear with a win in 1800 and 50874 points.

For this last round I did several things I don't normally do and they worked well. Stopping research to keep units that can get city raider promotions and using the gold to upgrade them was great. I've done that for short durations in some games, but I don't think I have maintained that until the end of game before. We didn't have much land to take over before the win though, so I didn't have to attack anyone with better units.

I don't play continents very often, so my judgement wasn't very good about how many units to take for the initial attack. I had to retake one of Rome's cities several times, and should have had defenders along to make keeping the cities easier (especially since I just hate to see an attacking unit with three or more promotions wasting abilities while defending a city).

 

[Cam_H]

Well done VuDu! Your first Prince win?

I don't play continents very often, so my judgement wasn't very good about how many units to take for the initial attack. I had to retake one of Rome's cities several times, and should have had defenders along to make keeping the cities easier (especially since I just hate to see an attacking unit with three or more promotions wasting abilities while defending a city).

You're not the only one!

A hopelessly over-generalised rule of thumb that I sometimes go with is to take a minimum of 10 seige units, 10 defenders, and 20 attacking units with my first wave of off-shore invasions of 'mid-level' enemies. I'd be forever be getting to the other continent and realise that I had about one quarter of the Cannons / Artillery I needed, and as you say, too few units that have sound defensive capabilities.

On to P666-02!

As indicated earlier, I think that despite the jump in level, this team will obliterate a Monarch Spaceship game. I'd like to toss up a few options before I roll up the new map:

(Image removed - server space)

I think that a tropical archipeligo with some financial civs might make the game a bit more challenging and add a couple of new dimensions to the game:

The archipeligo map will increase the need to pursue sailing-related technologies and make warfare a bit more interesting, iron working will be a higher priority to deal with the tropical jungle and make worker management a little more challenging, and then there's the improved commerce yield of the AI due to the 3 off coastal tiles.

Mansa's inexplicable technology pace, Washington's late game financial clout, and Huayna Capac's generally strong and typically aggressive style should push us a little harder than many of the other AI leaders.

All victory options enabled, but we can go only for Spaceship.

I'd be happy to go with Spain rather than the Aztecs also, but Cabert prefers Monty.

Thoughts on this proposal?

 

[pigswill]

How could you forget that industrious space racer Gandhi?
Napoleon is probably the best AI warmonger.
Archipelago sounds good; gives AIs room to expand as well; maybe low sea level.

 

[mice]

The new set up looks interesting, although hard from where I'm sitting !

Before we go on, I'd like to ask a few questons about this game.

The win was in the bag, but to try to beat Calavente's date...
What was the best target for the invasion, Julius, Saladin or Mansa? I attacked Saladin because he had ******** tech and low power. Rome's culture limited my new cities' culture, so maybe it was better to attack Julius and grab Rome.

I attacked the capital, but maybe it has more ancient culture surrounding it than a satelite city would.

What civics are best for this win in the late stages?

I put Confucianism in the new continent cities and attempted to build the confucian academy, but it was too slow late. Perhaps U.sufferage and buy it would have been better.

Congrats VuDu. It was a good game eh?

 

[armstrong]

As indicated earlier, I think that despite the jump in level, this team will obliterate a Monarch Spaceship game. I'd like to toss up a few options before I roll up the new map

I don't necessarily see that as a problem. We don't want to get too far out of anyone's comfort zones, and there's nothing wrong with winning decisively...

I think that a tropical archipeligo with some financial civs might make the game a bit more challenging and add a couple of new dimensions to the game

My experience is that archipelago maps tend to make the game much easier, especially for space races. Here are the reasons:

1. You can usually meet almost all the civs pre-Optics - that gives you lots of trade routes and trading partners, which the player is much better at exploiting than the AI.

2. You can build the Great Lighthouse & Colossus and gain a HUGE boost in early research. Players are smart enough to prioritize these heavily and make sure they grab them.

3. The AI poses little offensive threat, since they're so bad at naval assaults. Moreover, it's easy for the player to assault distant colonies and grab land from the AI with little chance of a serious counterattack. Moreover, the AI is less aggressive because they have less production, and thus less units and lower power.

4. Archipelago maps greatly slow the AI's development - I've never seen the AI complete Apollo on an Archipelago map. walkerjks once had a 1970 cultural archipelago win on Diety - the AI just doesn't know how to play archipelago maps. I'd guess the odds of an AI civ launching before 2050 on Monarch are <10% (unless you have Snaky Continents.)

5. A counterpoint - the fact that AI's can not really hurt each other in war makes it harder to slow down the AI.

So, I think an Archipelago might give us a slower launch date, but it will be a much easier win. Personally, I'm happy with anything, but I don't think we should intentionally make this really hard - it's a learning exercise, after all!

@VuDu: Congratulations!
@calavente: I played out my turns, and finished with 62k, so only a hair ahead of you. All of your advise (artists, ice cities, making trades that you know won't threaten you, etc) to mice was very good.

The weekly pace for the "save the trash game" is a strong motivator to play, not too much to allow for regular life, but still with enough reminder so that you don't just forget the game/ you don't get bored with it.

I really liked the pace a lot as well. There's lots of time to digest everything and stay focused, and very little pressure to play immediately. I think this would work really well as a consensus "best" game too - and in those cases, you could really up the challenges a lot!

 

[Cam_H]

What was the best target for the invasion, Julius, Saladin or Mansa? I attacked Saladin because he had ******** tech and low power. Rome's culture limited my new cities' culture, so maybe it was better to attack Julius and grab Rome.

Rome was a few tiles closer and also had a bigger land area. My hesitation often with attacking Rome is that Julius Caesar tends to build huge defences that can be draining. Once the decision that Mali was not going to be a threat, you can trade away some of the more developmental technologies for things such as Banking and Economics (other developmental technologies!).

I put Confucianism in the new continent cities and attempted to build the confucian academy, but it was too slow late. Perhaps U.sufferage and buy it would have been better.

I'm not sure if such expensive buildings as 'cathedrals' is necessary, and particularly given such a small culture-per-turn base to begin with.

My experience is that archipelago maps tend to make the game much easier, especially for space races.

You make a number of good points. I guess I was considering an option that would slow expansion down and give the AI a edge. As noted earlier, I almost always play good old continents, so I'm inexperienced with how the AI handles other maps. So - back to continents?

How could you forget that industrious space racer Gandhi?
Napoleon is probably the best AI warmonger.

I've not had a problem with Gandhi in the past, but that might be my good fortune - it's usually Mansa Musa or Huayna Capac that cause me Spaceship problems, and on a couple of occasions surprisingly Tokugawa (I have no idea how he can compete given his approach to diplomacy!).

I still think that we should make some effort to make this game more difficult other than selecting an unexceptional leader.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll get a new game up within 24 hours after a few more thoughts from the rest of the team.

 

[cabert]

just to brag a bit:
here is my save (i rushed the game tonight, but still a comfortable 1710AD win, with a score of 64091.
GA are really great

major difference:
- i attacked saladin, he had the sistin chapel and that's a big boost when you run mercantilism
- i finished nappy and had a great artist bomb in Lyon really early (no cats? still won't wait!)
- i pushed a little the culture slider
- i rushed theatres in newly conquered city
- i traded everything(!steel on the first turn i had it!) with mansa!

 

[Cam_H]

Good work Cabert ... specialists in full flight!

I would have guessed that Rome was the natural target - but with enough border expansion clearly Arabia could get you over the line soon enough.

Again - well done all!

 

[VuDu]

I bet you could have won a lot of those games you abandoned if you had stuck with 'em until 2050! One of the big things with playing at higher levels is that the AI is going to get ahead initially - they just start with more stuff and bigger advantages. But if you play them out, maybe reload a few times and try out something different, you'll eventually find strategies to catch up.

You're right - I did this a lot when moving up to Noble, and it was a huge help. I'll even give naming everything a shot .

 

[Cam_H]

Before I start a new thread on P666-02, I rolled up another arguably great starting location;

Should we take it?

 

[pigswill]

We take it.

In my trash#1 game I'm up to 1655; cleared the continent; taken rome and neapolis; waiting for reinforcements (always a problem with overseas adventures). Getting there slowly.

Got there. 1705 domination victory from my 1000ad save. 63,459 score.
Only thing to add is switching to free speech (100% culture), mercantilism (for free artist), whip theatres (you can convert culture to happy + 2 slots for artists).

 

[Cam_H]

Congratulation to you too Pigswill! Another early-Eighteenth Century win!

Game Two is now up!

 

[Calavente]

congrats all !!!

..hmmm
I choose ceasar as a victime, but it was a difficult choice:
mansa had the best place to invade : a corner of the continent, all cities massed around. but he was the more powerfull.
ceasar was surrounded by two friends, one north, one south.. but his lands were close by. and not too great technologicaly. and the closest guy.
saladin was the weakest : therefor the best to attack. but his land were sparce, as chili. Closed between the coast and ceasar.

I choose the risk of being caught by other christians... in order to be able to quickly reduce the culture pressure around my newly conquered cities : by taking the surrounding cities. Attacking saladin, I won't have been able to do that without attacking another civ (ceasar and especially roma that had a good deal of cultural influence in saladin's territory.)

I hesitated so much before giving away steel that I had mercantilism after declaring war on ceasar.. a bit too late because 2 other turns of anarchy in the middle of the last war was a too big a delay in my victory... but it would have been great for the extra artists (never got a Great ARtisit in this round )

==> exchange tech quicker cala !!!


And me too I misjuged the number of units.. I thought I had enough units... but no. I had to stop civilian building and creat many units back home, even knights !!! had it was very slow to bring them on the front, 5turns of roads and 6 turns of galleon later + not enough galleons...
next time I should have a better logistic !!!

 

[cabert]

about logisitics, armstrong di a pretty good job by building 7 (7!) galleons.
I immediately started building frigates, and more foot-troops. Saladin had some near land (nearer than JC in fact) if you sent you troops North-west from french cities So i landed a stack of 7*3 units in arab land, while bombing the defense, immediately sent back 3 galleons for reinforcements (cannons!) and said thank you saladin for making those nice cities for me.

I had some bad luck, making me lose one or 2 turns, when this lone camel archer killed my grenadier and took a city back! I was just a few turns from coming out of revolt and now had to :
- conquer it again, and
- wait for revolt to end .......
I don't know how many turns that made me lose, but it was painful. I had very bad luck vs those camel archers for the whole thing (pikemen lost grenadier lost ).
I was going to invade JC after saladin to make things faster if needed, even started filling up my galleons, but the victory screen showed and stopped me

About score/ early finish, i have a better score than pigswill though finishing one turn later, and i'm pretty sure that's because of Versailles and spiral minaret that i built in lyon. I was ready to finish the statue of liberty too.
I had too much to do with my workers, and couldn't send enough to chop the lady... Bad decision. Happy me, i didn't need the boost.
I was going to switch to caste system, but one more turn of anarchy stopped me from doing it. So i just whipped those theatres.

I must say Armstrong gave us a very strong position (only lacking the national wonders IMHO and a few more siege units), i don't see how you could lose from there.



I had 2 great artists, and was very pleased of it!
How did i get those? luck + national epic.