P666-02 Fix Another Trash Game

Cam_H said:
Have I taught you guys nothing? :rolleyes: ;)

So tech-wise it's Chemistry > Steel + Biology (although there's a Great Scientist in Physics) and we gear up for war. I'm a bit worried that Rifling will be handed around if we wait too long, but I'm really nervous about going into this Roman war with Maces still. :undecide:

Take out the Romans completely and then concentrate on America? How easy will Persia be - can we afford the time?

Do we need Cavalry or can we by-pass it and go with 1:move: units until Tanks? Rome has Horses, so it is a possibility.

I didn't play yet, so I may be a bit off here.
But I know one thing : with enough canons, you win every war.
And with enough cities, you build enough canons.

Do we need to kill FdR? I'm not sure.
Do we need to kill Cyrus? Yes, because I attacked him already (he'll come back for us anyway) and because his cities are good and easy to take.
So I buy Pigswill's war plan : JC first then Cyrus. Then maybe some more.
I just fear FdR dogpiling on us (he's that kind of guy!).

Horses are no good.
Our neighbours have a lot of coastal cities. If speed is necessary, galleons+frigates will do.
But military tradition is tradable and rather cheap + opens westpoint national wonder, so it's not a bad idea anyway.
 
Well I started playing my round a couple of days ago, but didn't finish it yet (I think I'm about 30 turns in). Regardless of the advice given since, I'm going to finish my round according to my original plan. I don't want to put any big spoilers out there, especially since I can't recall my exact tech choices, so my concern (without telling you why) is...

*possible small spoiler below*
Spoiler :
for *my* attempt I'm sure hoping that one or the other of cabert's thoughts turn out to be true :shifty:.
cabert said:
But I know one thing : with enough canons, you win every war.

cabert said:
Do we need to kill FdR? I'm not sure.

Calavente, thanks for playing and drop in and visit us if you can.
 
VuDu said:
Well I started playing my round a couple of days ago, but didn't finish it yet (I think I'm about 30 turns in). Regardless of the advice given since, I'm going to finish my round according to my original plan. I don't want to put any big spoilers out there, especially since I can't recall my exact tech choices, so my concern (without telling you why) is...

I played my round, and I can tell you some things about your worries.
BTW here is my save

Spoiler :
for *my* attempt I'm sure hoping that one or the other of cabert's thoughts turn out to be true :shifty:.

I went straight for cannons, and killed JC and Cyrus (almost : he's got one city left, in American territory).

to be more specific, it was war for 36 turns =
* no more JC,
* Cyrus down to one city with troops closing in.

+ We're n°2 in score, but catching up on FdR (so much land ).
+ I've got Oxford built in a pretty good commerce city (not in technotitlan). Not totally finished, but soon will be (Universal Suffrage could help but i need democracy)
+ I've got IW built in IronWheat (finishes this turn, it requires loads of watermills to be really good. Under SP you can use the watermills to feed the plains workshops)
+ I'm going for banks all around the place for wall street in technotitlan
+ I'm friendly with MM (so no dogpiling)
+ I'm second in power, so should be safe from FdR (unless we attack him ;) )
That was the good part.

Bad part was that exotic teching made me miss all the races (physics for FdR, Economics for MM, democracy is known everywhere except in Aztecland so no statue of liberty for us probably).
+ trading was difficult. I had to give up on all monopolies to stay in the race (rifling, biology, economics, scientific method,... were traded for, and that's good, but i had to give steel, chemistry, steam power, railroad,... for it)


Calavente, thanks for playing and drop in and visit us if you can.
I second this. Anytime you want to play some more, come visit us Calavente.
 
The round went pretty much as I had anticipated. A bit of war so infrastructure falling behind. Still not enough universities for Oxford. :sad:

Spoiler :
Slightlyahead of Cabert on warfare. Rome annihiliated. Persia annihilated on last round :) . On the other hand falling behind on tech; spent quite a few rounds getting cash for unit upgrades.


Now I can check other people's games!
 
pigswill said:
The round went pretty much as I had anticipated. A bit of war so infrastructure falling behind. Still not enough universities for Oxford. :sad:

hey, we're playing for space victory! land isn't enough

Spoiler :
Slightlyahead of Cabert on warfare. Rome annihiliated. Persia annihilated on last round :) . On the other hand falling behind on tech; spent quite a few rounds getting cash for unit upgrades.

Well done! kick cigar-head out of the game!



Now I can check other people's games!

I'll check your game later today.
And i'm anxious to see everyone else's!

I hope someone did a better "combo" (infra and war, teching and not trading too much away) than I did. I'm rather confident it's winnable after my game, but it could be largely easier if someone managed to imporve land more than I did (again!).
 
Here is my submission and log.

Spoiler :

Highlights
1460 Declared war on JC
1470 Discovered chemistry
1480 Captured Arretium
1500 Roosevelt demands Liberalism - I turn him down
1505 Ghandi demands chemistry - I give in; captured Ravenna
1510 Built great work in Bactra to expand the border there
1525 Sugar to Hattie for 2 gpt
1530 Discovered steel; captured Pisae; lost Pisae :rolleyes:
1535 Captured Pisae
1540 Discovered Music
1545 Wheat to Ghandi for Dye
1565 Captured Antium
1590 Captured Rome; on to Persia!
1610 Captured Gordium
1615 Discovered Scientific Method
1630 Silk to Hattie for 4 gpt
1635 Captured Pasargadae
1645 Sheep to Hattie for spices; captured Suza
1650 Traded Scientific Method to Hattie for Constitution and gold; switched to representation and free religion

Should get Persepolis next turn, leaving only Sidon to the south, which I would raze to eliminate Cyrus. When I noticed Roosevelt had infantry, I decided I'll have to kill him with kindness instead of cannons. Hopefully we can get all this nice land working in our favor quickly since the war is almost over.
 
If this was a trash round I'd win hands down. I played a terrible game and then FDR declared on me.

I'm looking forward to playing on from the winner's save. Now to develop cities and land,my favorite bit.
 
As a prelude - I only have recently seen VuDu's 1400AD game, and credit again to her with religious spread - the decision not to jump into Free Religion was more straight forward. :)

On the plus side ... score-wise I'm only 84 behind Roosevelt. :shifty:

I reached most of my aims, but America still is looming large as the run-away. Again, the tech' swapping was a little restrained, and as a result Roosevelt is protecting cities with Riflemen and Artillery.

Did anyone else strike this deal from the Heavens?

<Image Removed - Mansa offers War with America + 260:gold: for Nat + Lib + PP>​

[Edit] Even though we've all played - I'll wrap my report in a 'spoiler' to be consistent. ;)

Spoiler :
Round Objective

As generally agreed in the roster's pre-Round discussions;

Expand landmass in order to pose a &#8216;volumetric&#8217; threat to the runaway Americans; wipe out Rome and Persia. Furthermore aim initially for Steel.

I also wanted to build the Oxford University and Wall Street national wonders, and acquire Biology.

Opening

Julius Caesar was developing a considerable SoD of Horse Archers on the border of Neapolis, and it was quite clear that the existing garrison would be overrun should war be declared. Although Rome would be the first target, losing cities to the Romans with the risk of razing was not part of the plan!

Leveraging our Spiritual trait, the following deal was made;

<Image removed - Gandhi offers Nat + Mus + 260:gold: for Gun + Edu>

Swapped civics; Hereditary Rule / Nationhood / Slavery / Decentralisation / Organised Religion, and drafted Musketmen in Neapolis, Cumae, and the newly renamed Goldstone. I also began moving our Stack of Doom towards the east, envisaging an east to west sweep of the northern continent.

I cycled through the cities with a view to specialisation and renamed them with &#8216;commerce&#8217; or &#8216;unit&#8217; suffixes. CornyGems would become a second science centre (proposed site for Oxford), while Tenochtitlan would become our cash centre (proposed site for Wall Street). Credit to Cabert for identifying that the city with the Shrine income would benefit from Wall Street.

Play

Unknowingly, my move out of desperation to access Nationhood would pay handsomely, as the religious difference between Mali and America was clearly annoying Mansa to the point where this deal (noted above) could be made on the next turn;

<Image Removed - Mansa offers War with America + 260:gold: for Nat + Lib + PP>

The diplomatic penalty with Roosevelt was negligible, and because we shared Judaism, he remained &#8216;Pleased&#8217; throughout the Round. Mansa lost a single city, but they remain at war at 1650AD. I think that this may have considerably slowed the technology pace, as these two were heading the tech&#8217; race, although Gandhi, as expected, would emerge as another technology leader. I suspect that the war was largely phoney &#8211; due to the lack of cities being taken and lack of action on the Power chart &#8211; but a handy distraction for both leaders nonetheless.

The following turn I was to draft Muskets in Tenochtitlan, IronWheat, and CornyGems, and these units too were sent to Neapolis where there was some whipping up of Pikes also taking place. Following the six drafts, I was soon to switch out of Nationhood and back to Bureaucracy.

I possibly could have declared a few turns earlier on Caesar, but in 1490AD JC chose unwisely by declaring on us.

Really the remaining bulk of the Round from a commentary standpoint was the fall of Rome and the assault on Persia. As noted above, I opted to shift the Macemen and Catapult SoD over to the east and made a deliberate sweep so that captured cities would not require large immediate garrisons as &#8216;the wave&#8217; at the frontlines would not expose a weak &#8216;underbelly&#8217;. Obviously as Chemistry was acquired the City Raider Maces were upgraded, and likewise with the well-promoted Cannons later on with Steel.

The technology path was pretty well targeted towards Biology, which allows for the comfortable running of extra Specialists wherever wanted or needed, and Slavery gets a new lease of life. Good trades were made with Gandhi especially, but also Mansa, and even Hatshepsut was able to trade me Rifling towards the end. Everyone&#8217;s &#8216;Pleased&#8217; disposition (other than Cyrus) allowed me to ask for cash gifts, including a 520 gold donation from America.

I did shuffle around civics quite a bit, but stuck with Organised Religion throughout, as I whipped out the sixth University for Oxford (CornyGems), and the six Banks required for Wall Street (Tenochtitlan). Pleasingly one legacy from Julius Caesar was the number of Roman cities that were captured with an Academy in tact. I popped two Great Scientists - CornyGems got an Academy with the first, but the second posed a dilemma with the choice of about 2000:science: to Physics as a very big attraction, but I opted for another Academy, this time in Goldstone; the city to the east of the Capital that was yielding pretty respectable commerce.

Conclusion

By comparison with other games in this Round, I acknowledge that I was a few turns slower than most in the war effort, as Persia still has its capital in addition to its city on the American west coast. Some whipping took place in the last few turns, and as a result there&#8217;s still some room for population growth from within. Some games are clearly more advanced along the technology tree with presumably a more peaceful and developmentally-focussed AI and an increased willingness to trade.

I have since had an opportunity to look at the other games, and although Mice was quick to point out the &#8216;trashy&#8217; status of his game, clearly everyone else did pretty well.

[/Edit]
 
Cam_H said:
Did anyone else strike this deal from the Heavens?
Not that I didn't try. MM feared Roosevelt's military power, so wouldn't help me out. Chicken.;)
 
As the votes are trickling in, a few questions.

Is it better to build a pike or a musket if you're facing a stack of Horse archers?

I thought the 100% vs. mounted would make the pike the better choice.Then again the muskets are better for city defence later on.

Ah I just realised it was so you (Cam) could whip pikes and draft muskets, at the same time. Is that right?

Next question, Pigswill. I noticed you are building a jail in the capital. Is this common in your core cities? Seems like a good idea.

Next one. Is it common practise to ask for gold when the diplo modifier reaches "pleased"?
 
Mice,

In the case of 1400AD when Rome used practically no other units for that Neapolis assault, Pikes to my mind were the best option. If he'd mixed in lots of Maces and Crossbows (+50% vs. Melee) - perhaps a different story.

Yep - all the 'hurry' options can be enabled simultaneously, as Universal Suffrage is a Government Civic, Nationhood is a Legal Civic, and Slavery is a Labour Civic. The most advanced 'resourceless' defensive-oriented unit is selected with the draft - therefore Longbows, Muskets, Riflemen, Infantry, etc. Unfortunately in our game the drafted Muskets didn't get enough XPs to automatically get the Formation promotion, even with Vassalage.

I'll ask for gold if there's a lot there, although my 500+:gold: from Roosevelt was unexpectedly high. You can't 'go back to the well' too often - they will turn you away.
 
The votes are in and its.... "cannons" Cabert who takes the round.

Nice save to play from.

The years per turn changes to 2 years/turn at 1800 which means 40 turns takes us to 1820.

Cam mentioned that a strat discussion was a good idea before playing these rounds and I agree.

Here it comes down to war more or not doesn't it?
 
No more war! Give Peace a Chance (well, after finishing off Cyrus).We've now got the territory it's a matter of developing it, remembering that we need lots of research for interstellar technologies but also lots of hammers to build the spaceship.
Never neglect military completely, but also consider alliances and opportunities for defensive pacts.
Apart from that its a walk in the park.
 
Well deserved

Congratulations again to Cabert. :goodjob:

War

I'm tending to agree with Pigswill on the war issue for the next turns.
  • We are in no position to contemplate engaging Roosevelt in a (conventional) war.
    transp20x20.gif
  • We could beat up Hatshepsut, but we are not all that well geared for an inter-continental. I guess a Domination win is out of the question? ;)
    transp20x20.gif
  • Gandhi is a less appealing target than Hatty.
    transp20x20.gif
  • Mansa is an interesting proposition, but it would take a lot of effort for not too many cities that may have too much land swallowed up with American culture. We could simply aim to capture Gao and Kumbi Saleh, which would knock Mali out of the game in terms of competitiveness, but on balance I wonder if it would be more costly than beneficial. It's not as though we're desperate for any particular resource that Mansa has.
I think that we do need to develop large garrisons in BananaSplit, Bactra, CornyGems and T4, however Roosevelt's quantitatively small presence in San Francisco is reassuring. I am assuming that by stacking our southern border cities with units that the AI won't respond with suspicion?

Upcoming

I assume that we'll try to get Gandhi to trade Democracy for Communism, and we'll move into Universal Suffrage? Universal Suffrage will give us a plus modifier with Roosevelt and Gandhi, and we would lose our existing plus modifier with Mansa (Representation). It will also give us Emancipation which will help our cottage economy develop, which I assume would be a better move than either Serfdom (which also would be handy, as there are still a lot of under-developed tiles) or Slavery.

Now that Roosevelt has Rocketry, I expect to see his Apollo Program up and running in this Round. Thoughts on The Manhatten Project bee-line?

Should our Ironwheat start running lots of specialist Engineers so we might pop one (or two?) for the Space Elevator, or is it just easier to buy the thing? If so - how valuable would The Kremlin be to us?

Thoughts on The Internet bee-line?

Are we better off with Free Religion or Organised Religion given the amount of city development in front of us?
 
About war or peace, it's clear that we have nothing to gain from a war with anyone else than FdR.
And we don't have the power to crush FdR.
So our military goal is to finish Cyrus, then build up military to prepare for a possible later attack.
This must include navy (that's what T4 and T5 are good for!).
But in the foreseeable future it's specilalization/terrain improvement time. And population growth. No more wars!

About trading, i'd wait for hatchepetsuh to trade democracy or trade biology for it with MM. Communism will be our only monopoly tech, trading it is only useful if we gain 2/3 techs for it!

About wonders, ironwheat will be a powerhouse after it's fully watermilled (don't save the towns, we need hammers). Build the kremlin there in just a few turns!
After that, buy all you need. Statue of liberty is a nice boost, buying it could be good :).
Engineers? i don't think so
We need population now. Nothing beats population at this stage.

edit:
I've played my round (somehow rushed it, but it was strikingly easy... it's not won in 1820 though ;))
 
cabert said:
We need population now. Nothing beats population at this stage.
Population's pretty handy throughout the game. ;)


cabert said:
I've played my round (somehow rushed it, but it was strikingly easy... it's not won in 1820 though ;))
I've played too, and I am much more confident about our chances now than I have been in the last few Rounds, and as things fell, I need not have been quite so tentative about racing to fall-back positions such as bee-lining for The Internet or The Manhatten Project.

I didn't win in 1820 either, but didn't lose in 1820 either, either! :crazyeye:
 
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