That's part of why I want to remove them. Basically, removing settlers kills three birds with one stone- South Island won't over-expand, Europe will come into play (unless, somehow, you win the game before then, but I don't want that to be possible), and cities will be in the right place.
Pacific/Oceania Mod- Discussion Thread
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That's part of why I want to remove them. Basically, removing settlers kills three birds with one stone- South Island won't over-expand, Europe will come into play (unless, somehow, you win the game before then, but I don't want that to be possible), and cities will be in the right place.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Long again:
Spoiler :
Well,:
Resources, basically, can be done three ways. 1 is pre-set, the second is by the game's rules (which would be my preference), and the last is by a mixture of the above.
For the civs, you'd get a bigger dissapointment if they were CSs. They wouldn't be able to gift you advanced (or European) units, only the ones you have techs for.
I won't be subdividing the European civs. It's way too much work, and doesn't make much sense. As a result of that, France stays in.
And when I decided no settlers at all, it was actually the Maori that were a new portion. Europe already wasn't going to be able to send settlers, it doesn't make historical sense in most places, and the rest, I can use lua for (when I figure it out).
Basically, I want to force the Europeans into war.
As for building, the Maori will start with undeveloped cities, so, building-wise, they will have to develop.
The SPs, I don't (really) know how to do, so I'm going to wait until everything is fleshed out first.
Resources, basically, can be done three ways. 1 is pre-set, the second is by the game's rules (which would be my preference), and the last is by a mixture of the above.
For the civs, you'd get a bigger dissapointment if they were CSs. They wouldn't be able to gift you advanced (or European) units, only the ones you have techs for.
I won't be subdividing the European civs. It's way too much work, and doesn't make much sense. As a result of that, France stays in.
And when I decided no settlers at all, it was actually the Maori that were a new portion. Europe already wasn't going to be able to send settlers, it doesn't make historical sense in most places, and the rest, I can use lua for (when I figure it out).
Basically, I want to force the Europeans into war.
As for building, the Maori will start with undeveloped cities, so, building-wise, they will have to develop.
The SPs, I don't (really) know how to do, so I'm going to wait until everything is fleshed out first.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm sure that there is a way to adjust the units that military city states can give you. One way, for example, would be for all the Maori to have a UU musketman that is weaker than the plain musket, and then the military city state gives you the plain unit.
The other would be to create a tech with a dummy unit that is unbuildable but can be gifted by a MilCS. There are lots of ways.
But I'm also fine with a design where the city states are all Maori.
Not sure how much work it would be (you'd just create two civs rather than one - and you're creating multiple Maori civs anyway).
There are some realism problems with it, but there might also be some advantages. If all the settlers in the North Island are a single British civ, then it will be really, really dangerous to ever attack them, because then their entire military might will fall on you. On contrast, if you split the Brits in two, then you could attack settlers in Northland without them sending up an army from Wellington to deal with you.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Sorry. New portion?
I think it makes a lot of historic sense for a British player to have settler units and for them to go around grabbing land during the late-game.
I don't really like this. First, it is ahistoric, in that most Maori didn't fight the Brits. Most British settlements were settlements, they weren't conquered Maori villages.
Second, it reduces the number of playstyles possible for a Maori player. This is how I see things working; a human Maori player builds up an empire in one region of the country. Then, in the late-game, the Brits start arriving. The challenge is to have built up a tough enough empire that you can either win by some kind of domination victory (control X cities, perhaps?) before the Brits show up, or that you are in a race-to-the-finish-line for a score victory with the British. You might choose to attack them to slow their settlements and stop them from gobbling up all the land, you might that expansionist British want your land and so declare war on you, but it should be possible to eke out a score victory if you can consolidate your empire and get some kind of peaceful coexiestence. Historically, the British really declared war on the Maori, rather than the reverse. I'd like to feel a Maori player threatened by colonists arriving and gobbling up all the land. I think that would be *great* flavor.
So basically, I think war with the Brits should be likely, but not necessarily guaranteed.
That's fine, I'm just brainstorming, but it does matter, and does affect some early design decisions. For example, if a pro-city-state policy tree was intended to affect Europeans, then it needs to have Europeans as the city states. If a pro-city-state policy tree is intended to affect Maori, then there need to be Maori city states.
Yes, but, as far as I'm aware, you couldn't prevent them from gifting Maori units, as well.
True, but I want the Brits to attack en masse. Besides, wasn't most of the British defense force either militia or from Australia?
I'll look into it.
Weren't a lot of British cities based around old Maori settlements, though? Part of what I'm looking at is having cities transfer ownership and name peacefully, and cities being founded roughly when they would historically. In other words, even if Britain doesn't go warmongering, they'll still expand and threaten the Maori. On the flipside, it disadvantages the French, because they will be forever limited to a maximum of one city, unless they warmonger.
Well, Europe's NPC now, and any CS policies will affect all CSs, if that answers the question.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm reasonably sure that you can adjust which units are available for city state gift in which era. You could block all the Maori units.
I'm not sure it is fun to face a superpower with no hope. Anyway, I don't feel strongly about it. It might work better this way, particularly if you have time to carve out a decent empire first.
One fun mechanism might be to have the Brits be very strong, and aggressive, and have a conquest victory where you have to capture and hold X cities. So, you have incentives to play very aggressively against the Maori tribes, and to try to press your advantage to take as many cities as you can before the Brits show up, and then you just try to defend yourself from the Brits while taking a few more Maori cities so as to be able to meet the victory condition before the Brits roll over you. Basically, make it really impossible for the Maori players to actually take British cities, so they have to keep conquering other Maori. Depending on difficulty level, the Brits could show up earlier, so you have less time vs the Maori players.
Yes, though the guns and equipment were imported from Britain (and cannon). And many of the soldiers who came from Australia were British regulars stationed in Australia.
Well, sortof.... there were Maori settlements of some size or another in almost any good place, so naturally there were some Maori in most of the places that the settlers arrived in.
Settlers valued good harbors though to a much greater extent than Maori did.
I'm skeptical that a mechanic with peaceful transfer of ownership is going to be much fun. Having cities taken away from you would feel very arbitrary and not-fun.
Again, if the emphasis is really on the Maori vs Maori musket wars, then the Europeans should only be arriving in the very endgame. There are over 100:1 Maori:Europeans by the time the musket wars end.
It would be great if you can have British cities use location-specific names a la Rhyes. I really wouldn't worry too much about trying to match historic timing though. The spawn of settler units and such should depend on difficulty level, and be designed to make the gameplay fun.
I think the idea of the scenario should be to create a fun scenario, rather than trying to match history too closely. The actual history was basically Brits showing up, buying land (often from people who didn't really own it) and Maori dying from disease.
I really think it would be bizarre to have a French player that did anything. I would be inclined to drop France completely except for maybe a city state. It would just be too jarring to have a French player. That was really never even close to happening.
No, not really... sorry maybe I'm not being clear here.
Suppose I have a social policy tree that is "Cultural assimilation" or something, that gives bonuses with city states. If the city states are European, that makes sense.
But if the city states are Maori, then "cultural assimilation" would make no sense as a policy tree that gives bonuses to city states.
Ah! Ok, we are on the same page then.
I really don't have any idea how you'd block a CS from giving a unit. Not the kind of I-don't-know-how-to-use-lua I don't know, but the where-the-heck-would-you-even-find-that I don't know. As far as I know, no ones ever modded that, either. They gift UUs of any civ, already, and new units are automatically added, so I think that may be a dll thing...
As for the Britain superpower thing, the idea is kind of that they'll show up halfway through, and get 2-3 cities without a fight. By this point, the Maori are mostly developed, border-wise, so there's not a lot of room for settlers, except on S. Island. I can do that, but I fear it make England a little too strong.
And the emphasis isn't just the musket wars, it runs from pre-European up through the end of the Land Wars, so it will feature Maori v. Maori and Maori v. England time periods. Part of what I'm looking at is taking one tech, which will give some weaker European units and put the Europeans on the island the turn it is first completed. I think that might simulate the victories of the Maori that embraced the European's weapons over those that didn't, or hesitated.
The British cities would be location-specific. Part of why I want to script it is because I wouldn't need to mod the England civ, but the cities wouldn't be very difficult to do.
France is one of those history/gameplay things. For history, they'll only get one city, no settlers, etc., but, for gameplay, they stand in as: ok, England and the Maori hate me. Maybe I can bribe France into war?
The social policies will be named to prevent issues mentioned above.
As for the Britain superpower thing, the idea is kind of that they'll show up halfway through, and get 2-3 cities without a fight. By this point, the Maori are mostly developed, border-wise, so there's not a lot of room for settlers, except on S. Island. I can do that, but I fear it make England a little too strong.
And the emphasis isn't just the musket wars, it runs from pre-European up through the end of the Land Wars, so it will feature Maori v. Maori and Maori v. England time periods. Part of what I'm looking at is taking one tech, which will give some weaker European units and put the Europeans on the island the turn it is first completed. I think that might simulate the victories of the Maori that embraced the European's weapons over those that didn't, or hesitated.
The British cities would be location-specific. Part of why I want to script it is because I wouldn't need to mod the England civ, but the cities wouldn't be very difficult to do.
France is one of those history/gameplay things. For history, they'll only get one city, no settlers, etc., but, for gameplay, they stand in as: ok, England and the Maori hate me. Maybe I can bribe France into war?
The social policies will be named to prevent issues mentioned above.
I don't see any tags for it, so thats the major problem. If I could find something like that, than I might go for the CS option.
Ahriman
Tyrant
My only Civ5 modding experience is with Thalassicus's VEM mod, and I am useless on the actual technical details. But I am pretty sure in various versions that he has adjusted which units were available to be given by MilCSs in various periods. So you could ask him.
But only if you went the way of Europeans as city states. You don't have to go that way, it was just an idea.
You could also just have the Europeans as regular civs, with triggered events.
I thought of another way of getting military units; one half of a European-values social policy tree could be giving you free free units when you purchase the policy. Eg: "Royal visit" could give you 4 superior Musket units at your capital - flavor based on Hongi Hika's 1819 voyage to London to meet the King, where he was given gifts that he then sold in Australia for guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongi_Hika#Journey_to_England.2C_1819.E2.80.931821
Hmm. Maybe. But my thought was that a few places would be left specifically blank, so as to encourage settlers to come there.
I guess the main problem from a historic perspective is that many of the early colonist cities *were* from places occupied by Maori, but the land was bought, not conquered. Its hard to think of a good/fun way to model that.
I would probably keep these separate; I would have a tech that allows some trade musket units to be built, but I would trigger European arrivals by script on a fixed game turn based on difficulty level, rather than tying it into the tech tree. I don't think that you want distortions in the tech tree (don't research this tech, it will bring the Europeans). The European arrival should feel exogenous to the game; there is nothing Maori can really do to prevent it.
Hmm, that could work. And they could be given a lot of gold, or a UB-providing gold, and a European-only tech that lets them build frigates, so even with only a small city they might but themselves an army.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Some more random ideas:
Maori Buildings:
Palisade. Defensive building, like walls.
Pa. Defensive building, like castle. [I think it is better to have a Pa be a city building than an on-map construction, which the AI never manages to use well.]
Gunfighter's pa. Defensive building, reduces damage from bombardment?
Kumara gardens. Food production building, like granary.
Potato gardens. Late-game food production building (gives more food). [Though: maybe these gardens should actually be improvements, rather than buildings, and potatoes could be a tech that increases the garden improvement from +1 food to +2 food, like fertilizer.]
Trading post could be a gold-boosting building (market doesn't really make sense; Maori didn't have money, they had a barter economy).
Wharenui (meeting house). Courthouse replacement??
Wai Tapu (sacred ground). Basic culture building - like Monmument. Boosted by Tradition social policy tree?
Marae. Culture building, like temple. Boosted by Tradition social policy tree?
Wanaga. Gives research bonus, like library.
Gunsmith. Gives free experience or military production bonus to gunpowder units. [The gunsmiths were Europeans, but they dealt with Maori, and maintaining the weapons well was very important.]
Mission. Gives culture/happiness? Boosted by Christianity policy tree?
Church. Similar?
Native school. Gives research bonus, boosted by European social policy tree?
<I forget the name, food storage hut>, give +X% excess food.
Not sure what barracks buildings could be?
Colonial office, or similar, could be a European-only very cheap "dummy" building that gives big food, happiness and gold bonuses. The idea would be that the Europeans get rapidly more powerful as they expand, because they are able to get one of these immediately in each new town. If the settlers are unbuildable but show up at various points by script, and then fan out to found cities, then the Maori players would have strong incentives to attack the settlers (and their military escorts) to try to stop new towns being founded.
A pub or grog-shop could give happiness with a culture penalty.
I kindof like the idea that there should be a cultural victory, supported by a Tradition tree, and there could be a number of buildings that give things that increase production or gold or happiness (letting you get a large city) but at the cost of culture.
Land sales. +4 gold, +25% gold, -25% culture.
Units:
Mere warband (a mere is a club), 2 moves, city attack bonus
Taiaha warband, 2 moves, moderate strength
Trade Musket warband, 2 moves, high strength
Brown Bess Musketmen, 2 moves, very high strength
Cannon, high strength, 2 range, penalty vs units, bonus vs cities
Sharpshooters, 2 moves, moderate strength, modest ranged attack. [A bit ahistoric, but the only semi-plausible ranged unit other than cannon. Maybe call this: Enfield Rifles, or Riflemen company]
Waka 5 moves, 1 range ranged attack?
Siege waka, 4 moves, 2 range ranged attack, bonus vs cities? [There were reports that some waka had cannon. They couldn't fire while on board, but they could land on-shore and then fire.]
Taua raiders. Low strength, 3 moves, bonus strength in forests? [A bit ahistoric, but we want something more than 2 moves or warfare will be boring.] Maybe move after attack? I think we would want to model hit and run raider units.
Horsemen, 4 moves, moderate strength. Maybe the chariot penalty where it ends its turn if it moves into rough terrain? [Only European, Maori never had cavalry.]
I can't really see any way of modelling the way the war really worked, where Maori would quickly build a pa, Europeans would besiege it with great expensive and time, and then Maori would slip out the back and then go somewhere else.
Wonders
Ruapekapeka Pa. Defensive boost in all cities?
National Wonder: signing the treaty, gives gold bonus, but culture penalty??
Hiona, a culture or happiness boosting wonder? [A bit anachronistic, but flavorful. This was Rua Kenana's meeting house, attached to his religious movement, which said that Maori were the lost tribe of Israel, and so chosen by god.]
Passive resistance could be an interesting social policy. A bonus with city states?
Kingitanga (Maori formation of a monarchy) could be an interesting policy or wonder.
Specialists:
Artist could be "Elder" or "Kaumatua", and there could be slots for these on Marae and other similar buildings.
Merchant could be "trader".
Scientists could be "students", or similar.
Not sure about engineers.
Maori Buildings:
Palisade. Defensive building, like walls.
Pa. Defensive building, like castle. [I think it is better to have a Pa be a city building than an on-map construction, which the AI never manages to use well.]
Gunfighter's pa. Defensive building, reduces damage from bombardment?
Kumara gardens. Food production building, like granary.
Potato gardens. Late-game food production building (gives more food). [Though: maybe these gardens should actually be improvements, rather than buildings, and potatoes could be a tech that increases the garden improvement from +1 food to +2 food, like fertilizer.]
Trading post could be a gold-boosting building (market doesn't really make sense; Maori didn't have money, they had a barter economy).
Wharenui (meeting house). Courthouse replacement??
Wai Tapu (sacred ground). Basic culture building - like Monmument. Boosted by Tradition social policy tree?
Marae. Culture building, like temple. Boosted by Tradition social policy tree?
Wanaga. Gives research bonus, like library.
Gunsmith. Gives free experience or military production bonus to gunpowder units. [The gunsmiths were Europeans, but they dealt with Maori, and maintaining the weapons well was very important.]
Mission. Gives culture/happiness? Boosted by Christianity policy tree?
Church. Similar?
Native school. Gives research bonus, boosted by European social policy tree?
<I forget the name, food storage hut>, give +X% excess food.
Not sure what barracks buildings could be?
Colonial office, or similar, could be a European-only very cheap "dummy" building that gives big food, happiness and gold bonuses. The idea would be that the Europeans get rapidly more powerful as they expand, because they are able to get one of these immediately in each new town. If the settlers are unbuildable but show up at various points by script, and then fan out to found cities, then the Maori players would have strong incentives to attack the settlers (and their military escorts) to try to stop new towns being founded.
A pub or grog-shop could give happiness with a culture penalty.
I kindof like the idea that there should be a cultural victory, supported by a Tradition tree, and there could be a number of buildings that give things that increase production or gold or happiness (letting you get a large city) but at the cost of culture.
Land sales. +4 gold, +25% gold, -25% culture.
Units:
Mere warband (a mere is a club), 2 moves, city attack bonus
Taiaha warband, 2 moves, moderate strength
Trade Musket warband, 2 moves, high strength
Brown Bess Musketmen, 2 moves, very high strength
Cannon, high strength, 2 range, penalty vs units, bonus vs cities
Sharpshooters, 2 moves, moderate strength, modest ranged attack. [A bit ahistoric, but the only semi-plausible ranged unit other than cannon. Maybe call this: Enfield Rifles, or Riflemen company]
Waka 5 moves, 1 range ranged attack?
Siege waka, 4 moves, 2 range ranged attack, bonus vs cities? [There were reports that some waka had cannon. They couldn't fire while on board, but they could land on-shore and then fire.]
Taua raiders. Low strength, 3 moves, bonus strength in forests? [A bit ahistoric, but we want something more than 2 moves or warfare will be boring.] Maybe move after attack? I think we would want to model hit and run raider units.
Horsemen, 4 moves, moderate strength. Maybe the chariot penalty where it ends its turn if it moves into rough terrain? [Only European, Maori never had cavalry.]
I can't really see any way of modelling the way the war really worked, where Maori would quickly build a pa, Europeans would besiege it with great expensive and time, and then Maori would slip out the back and then go somewhere else.
Wonders
Ruapekapeka Pa. Defensive boost in all cities?
National Wonder: signing the treaty, gives gold bonus, but culture penalty??
Hiona, a culture or happiness boosting wonder? [A bit anachronistic, but flavorful. This was Rua Kenana's meeting house, attached to his religious movement, which said that Maori were the lost tribe of Israel, and so chosen by god.]
Passive resistance could be an interesting social policy. A bonus with city states?
Kingitanga (Maori formation of a monarchy) could be an interesting policy or wonder.
Specialists:
Artist could be "Elder" or "Kaumatua", and there could be slots for these on Marae and other similar buildings.
Merchant could be "trader".
Scientists could be "students", or similar.
Not sure about engineers.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Another thought: one way that we could model Europeans buying up Maori land would be if they get (via script) civilian great people units ("surveyors"? "land agents"?) with the great artist culture bomb ability.
This way, the Europeans can start stealing all the land even while at peace, encouraging the Maori to declare war on them or risk losing all their land.
I quite like this!
This way, the Europeans can start stealing all the land even while at peace, encouraging the Maori to declare war on them or risk losing all their land.
I quite like this!
Ahriman
Tyrant
Yes, I'd let them do it whenever, and have the great people provided by script. I think the block is only really there to limit the human player, but the human player won't have any surveyors.
As an alternative; you could create a "surveyor" specialist type that only appeared in buildings that the Europeans had access to, and have that specialist type provide a very high GPP income, and have the great surveyor unit have the culture bomb.
* * *
Improvements:
Maybe we could have two types of worker; a Maori worker and a Colonist.
The workers could have different improvement-building access.
The Maori worker could create:
Garden (+1 food on flatland, +1 food with potatoes tech).
Camp +1 production on forest.
Village +2 gold.
Trail (road). This is probably a necessary evil if we want to have trade routes. A bit ahistoric, but that's life. [Similarly, there probably needs to be some kind of harbor replacement doing trade connection by water, but I'm not sure what to call that; they used canoes, so they didn't need any kind of port structure. One possibility: have a harbor structure that is actually a natural harbor, and have them pre-placed in various coastal towns, and have them be not destroyed on city conquest.]
The Colonist could create:
Farm (flatland only, +2 food)
Mine (+2 hammers)
Lumbermill (+2 hammers)
Town (+3 gold)
Pasture (+1 food +1 hammer, only on hills).
Railroad.
As an alternative; you could create a "surveyor" specialist type that only appeared in buildings that the Europeans had access to, and have that specialist type provide a very high GPP income, and have the great surveyor unit have the culture bomb.
* * *
Improvements:
Maybe we could have two types of worker; a Maori worker and a Colonist.
The workers could have different improvement-building access.
The Maori worker could create:
Garden (+1 food on flatland, +1 food with potatoes tech).
Camp +1 production on forest.
Village +2 gold.
Trail (road). This is probably a necessary evil if we want to have trade routes. A bit ahistoric, but that's life. [Similarly, there probably needs to be some kind of harbor replacement doing trade connection by water, but I'm not sure what to call that; they used canoes, so they didn't need any kind of port structure. One possibility: have a harbor structure that is actually a natural harbor, and have them pre-placed in various coastal towns, and have them be not destroyed on city conquest.]
The Colonist could create:
Farm (flatland only, +2 food)
Mine (+2 hammers)
Lumbermill (+2 hammers)
Town (+3 gold)
Pasture (+1 food +1 hammer, only on hills).
Railroad.
Ah, much appreciated with the lists and suggestions!
I might look at the building's effects again, but that should be very helpful.
I'll post what I think it should be soon, and, Pouakai, could you make the buildings and wonders?
I might look at the building's effects again, but that should be very helpful.
I'll post what I think it should be soon, and, Pouakai, could you make the buildings and wonders?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Thanks. I'll keep editing ideas into these posts if anything good comes up (unless you'd prefer new posts).
These lists aren't complete, and we'll still need to design for gameplay function rather than just for historicity.
One thing I'm worried about is that without many multiple-tier units or ranged attack units or siege units, that combat will be very boring, which is a killer in a warfare-oriented mod.
So I think it will probably very important to have some interesting sets of promotions (forest and hill specialists, maybe?) to try to make combat more fun.
Another idea would be to have the musket units have open terrain bonuses, while the melee units have more rough terrain bonuses.
These lists aren't complete, and we'll still need to design for gameplay function rather than just for historicity.
One thing I'm worried about is that without many multiple-tier units or ranged attack units or siege units, that combat will be very boring, which is a killer in a warfare-oriented mod.
So I think it will probably very important to have some interesting sets of promotions (forest and hill specialists, maybe?) to try to make combat more fun.
Another idea would be to have the musket units have open terrain bonuses, while the melee units have more rough terrain bonuses.
Periodically, a new post'd be good (when the page changes, is the big one.) Otherwise, edits are fine.
Promotions, you hit the nail on the head. European units will play very differently than Maori units, even with the same civ. That's the major benefit combat gets in this mod.
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