Pacific/Oceania Mod- Discussion Thread

[Ahriman]

Is the intention for a Musket Wars scenario, or a Colonization scenario? These would play/need to be designed very differently in terms of tech tree, unit selection, social policies, luxuries/resources, etc.

For example; Europeans would have a very different tech tree (mostly about various forms of resource exploitation and export opportunities; eg refrigeration would be there as a big trade booster) than Maori would have. Europeans would value resources very differently (eg: gold, coal, kauri gum) than Maori would. Europeans would have entirely different buildings to what Maori would have.

French and English are playable, but start with settler (one for France only 2-3 for England), and can't build new ones (put them in future tech).

For a musket war scenario, I would strongly recommend leaving them as various military city states; Russel (or Kororareka, as it was initially called), Akaroa, maybe some others.

South Island would be completely represented, just wouldn't have anyone start on the southern portions.

I don't think this would make sense in a pre-Treaty focused scenario, the winters were too cold for Maori to be able to live permanently in much of the southern/western part. They went down in summer to collect greenstone and food items, but that is about it.
It would also give South Island Maori tribes a huge advantage in that they would have a very large area to settle into.

Social Policies, I would like to do the exact way mentioned. Basically, 4 types of trees, 8 total. Each of the four categories focuses on something different, the two trees favor two different playstyles, and lock each other out.

I'm not sure if this makes sense if the Europeans are playable.

* * *
Another thought; you could have a Musket War scenario with a nonplayable European civ that had various units (including settlers) showing up by scripted event?
So for example, at some point some powerful musket units and a settler and worker show up in Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, Tauranga, New Plymouth..... and you can either deal with them gobbling up land or try to fight them?
If the Europeans are nonplayable then you wouldn't need to develop a proper set of resources/units/techs/social policies to support them.

 

[CivOasis]

Well, I would script Europe, except that I don't know lua.
With the SPs, I was thinking one that would generally favor the Maori, one that would generally favor Europe, but, if no Europe, it'd be different.

I was thinking early colonization- musket wars era. They were around the same time, right? If not, then that would be redone, to musket wars.

 

[Ahriman]

With the SPs, I was thinking one that would generally favor the Maori, one that would generally favor Europe, but, if no Europe, it'd be different.

Well, but it would be just weird for a European player to pick a traditional Maori social policy tree,
It would also be weird to not allow a European player to build more cities; it was mostly a period of European settlement, rather than conquest.

I was thinking early colonization- musket wars era. They were around the same time, right?

Not really.

Basically, European contact starts around 1800. In the early decades there are a handful of Europeans in New Zealand; mostly whalers, sealers, and missionaries. And some traders.
These guys introduce guns and potatoes (important, because they enable larger raiding parties) and a few other things.
Over 1807-1842 are the Musket Wars, basically a bunch of tribal wars between Maori where the early adopters of European technology conquer (and often wipe out and sometimes eat) the slow adopters. There are maybe a million Maori in the country before these wars begin.
As of 1840, there are roughly 4,000 Europeans in the country, and a Treaty is signed between the British and (some) Maori tribes, which (sortof) grants Britain sovereignty over New Zealand.

Real European colonization comes in the 1840s and beyond.

The Musket wars between Maori are over by 1842.

The New Zealand Land wars, between the British (occasionally with some Maori allies) and Maori come between 1845-1870s, as lots of colonists show up. By 1860, Maori and European populations are roughly equal (lots of Maori have died from wars and disease, lots of Europeans haev arrived).

So really these are quite different periods. The Musket wars are wars between various tribes; you have a bunch of tribes fighting each other for dominance. The wars are very bloody; tens of thousands killed, and large armies are fielded.

The Land Wars are between the British and various (separate, ununified) Maori tribes, mostly over land and over tribes refusing to submit to colonial authority. The battles are much smaller, the casualty counts smaller. European domination of the country is already assured, they're really just wiping out pockets of resistance (some of whom resist very, very well).

 

[Pouakai]

Natural wonders would certainly fit well, but yeah, would need custom art, as would any mod like this.

I might go for Whakarewarewa rather than the Terraces, and then Old Faithful would fit. We probably wouldn't want two right next to each other on the map.

Good idea, call say it's Pohutu or something.

The bottom of the south island was really empty, so I think I probably would cut the map off so that only the NE of the south island existed; as far west as Nelson and as far south as Bank's peninsula, (and maybe twist the whole thing a bit).

Maybe just have a line from the Rakaia river mouth west as the bottom - West Coast could be a source of Ponamu luxury resource.

You'd think the Ruapahu/Ngaurahoe/Tongariro would need to be there. Gibraltar could be used as a proxy for the bay of islands rock arch, maybe? (kindof iconic). Or Tane Mahuta could be one. We'd want something in Northland.

I was thinking about this, and wondered if there could be a mountain with a nearby settlement that has the 'Mount Ruapahu wonder' built, which symbolises the cultural significance while not requiring a new model. Tane Mahuta could possibly just use a forest tile (Slightly enlarged if possible) and Gibraltar/Arch sounds good, but Tane and it would be mutually exclusive, or else it would be like starting in America on a huge earth map.

The Pinnacles or Kupe's Sail (out on Cape Palliser) could be one, but those are far less well known.
Waitomo Caves maybe? Mt Hikurangi or Lake Urewera, for something east cape.

I would say Waitomo caves would be best represented as I suggested Mt. Ruapahu is, as a wonder in a nearby city. Kupe's Sail I think could be represented by the Rock of Gibraltar better than the other one.


Your resources sound good, although I would throw gold in there to be on the West coast.

EDIT: This is what happens when you leave the reply window open for ages. I like the idea of scripted events, but instead of settlers, why not transfer of cities? The british could pop up and demand that you cede control of 'Te-Whanganui-a-tara', if you agree it changes to Wellington and becomes British, and if you refuse there is a severe diplomatic hit. They would instantly recieve a Courthouse as to stop puppeting etc.

EDIT2: I found this, it's a map of tribal districts in NZ, could be useful:

 

[CivOasis]

To be quite honest, I'm kinda lost, geographically, but that's ok. Its awesome I'm getting help from the region, much better than second-hand research (I can just look up the rest).

So, what I could do is pre-set all of the cities (Is it like a Mexico City=Tenochtitlan thing over there, or are there European cities that weren't originally native?), and fill South Island with some City-States.

As for the scripting, I don't know how, but I think Gedemon does, I believe his WWII scenario used it. If I can get info from him, I'll take scripted events for the Europeans, and allow the Maori (who will be the only playable option) to do whatever they want. If that's possible, it also would solve the time-period issue, as I could script the entire European interaction (probably up until the end of the land wars, at which point the game would end, if it hadn't already).
Good or bad idea?

 

[CivOasis]

Also, to give an overview, this is my end goal for the mod pack:
3 maps (NZ, Hawai'i, and a large section of the Pacific).
8-ish civs (Varies on info, but Hawai'i, Maori, Tonga, Rapa Nui, etc.)
3 total conversion scenarios (One for NZ, the Unification of Hawai'i, and a full-scale Pacific scenario in the vein of Putmalk's Ancient Mesopotamia).
A TSL version of the Pacific map.

 

[Pouakai]

To be quite honest, I'm kinda lost, geographically, but that's ok. Its awesome I'm getting help from the region, much better than second-hand research (I can just look up the rest).

That's OK, we're here to help

So, what I could do is pre-set all of the cities (Is it like a Mexico City=Tenochtitlan thing over there, or are there European cities that weren't originally native?), and fill South Island with some City-States.

You have to realise that, for the most part, Maori didn't have cities, or towns per se. What they had were Pa, which were essentially fortified villages surrounded by palisades and usually a hill. On the site of Wellington, there were several Pa. One is usually the main village of a group, with others being satalites, acting as guard towers and farming centers. They often had hills in the middle, with gardens for Kumara (Sweet Potato) on either side, allowing for shelter and sunlight for either side. Most of today's cities are near Pa sites, but some are not, mostly the southern ones. Otherwise pretty much everywhere accessable had a Pa.

As for the scripting, I don't know how, but I think Gedemon does, I believe his WWII scenario used it. If I can get info from him, I'll take scripted events for the Europeans, and allow the Maori (who will be the only playable option) to do whatever they want. If that's possible, it also would solve the time-period issue, as I could script the entire European interaction (probably up until the end of the land wars, at which point the game would end, if it hadn't already).
Good or bad idea?

Sounds good. One issue I could have, the geology of NZ, particularily Wellington, has changed a lot since the Maori arrived. Take, for example, Wellington:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wellington_reclamation_animation.gif
This shows the reclaimation of land done by man, however:

The dotted line shows the current shore, the image is a computer-generated pre-1460 image, when Maori were living in the area. A massive earthquake uplifted the area, causing the channel between Miramar and the mainland to become an isthmus. Away from Wellington, there is also said to be a large earthquake around Rotorua that swallowed a Pa with a population of approximately 1000 people. See This link for more info.

Also, to give an overview, this is my end goal for the mod pack:
3 maps (NZ, Hawai'i, and a large section of the Pacific).
8-ish civs (Varies on info, but Hawai'i, Maori, Tonga, Rapa Nui, etc.)
3 total conversion scenarios (One for NZ, the Unification of Hawai'i, and a full-scale Pacific scenario in the vein of Putmalk's Ancient Mesopotamia).
A TSL version of the Pacific map.

Sounds good, although some may be hard. Might I reccomend:

- Hawaii (Using Kamehameha leaderhead)
- Maori
- Rapa Nui
- Papua
-

 

[CivOasis]

Good to know, about the changing coastlines.
For the Pa, that should work for the northern sites, right? For the southern, maybe I can work with scripting for European settlements, or, in the name of balance, be slightly anachronistic (preference or better ideas?)

The civs I was planning on adding (And this isn't for scenarios, Hawai'i and the Maori will be further divided for those):

Kingdom of Hawai'i (Yes, under Kamehameha.)
Marquesas (possible?)
Samoa
Kingdom of Tahiti
Tonga
Cook Islands
The Maori (Would keep the UU, new UB)
Rapa Nui (again, possible? Got to have someone with moai, they're just too fun to waste.)

I hadn't thought of the Papuans (right denonym?), but they would be good.

 

[CivOasis]

Easiest will be the maps, followed by civs (which are pre-req for the TSL map), then scenarios. My major problems are in that I can't do graphics or lua, which will, unfortunately, be required. I should be able to handle the xml and maps just fine, though.

 

[CivOasis]

By the way, what Maori groups should be included in the scenario, both as civs and CSs?

 

[Pouakai]

Easiest will be the maps, followed by civs (which are pre-req for the TSL map), then scenarios. My major problems are in that I can't do graphics or lua, which will, unfortunately, be required. I should be able to handle the xml and maps just fine, though.

I can help with the wonders if needed

By the way, what Maori groups should be included in the scenario, both as civs and CSs?

I would look back to that map I showed earlier, definately Ngai Tahu, I would also do something from Taranaki, Northland, East Cape, Central and Wellington.

Good to know, about the changing coastlines.
For the Pa, that should work for the northern sites, right? For the southern, maybe I can work with scripting for European settlements, or, in the name of balance, be slightly anachronistic (preference or better ideas?)

There were Maori about as far south as Queenstown, so I think you only really need to worry about Southland.

The civs I was planning on adding (And this isn't for scenarios, Hawai'i and the Maori will be further divided for those):

Kingdom of Hawai'i (Yes, under Kamehameha.)
Marquesas (possible?)
Samoa
Kingdom of Tahiti
Tonga
Cook Islands
The Maori (Would keep the UU, new UB)
Rapa Nui (again, possible? Got to have someone with moai, they're just too fun to waste.)

I hadn't thought of the Papuans (right denonym?), but they would be good.

Of that, I can really only see a possible issue with Marquesas, but I don't know much about that part of the Pacific. The Rapa Nui would be possible easily, have a 'Birdman Cult' UU and the Moai UI. The main problem I see with all of these is how similar Polynesian cultures are.

 

[CivOasis]

Ok, so, Gedemon is giving me lua help, so this is what it will look like (depending only on the limits of cities changing hands and my understanding of how to put the lua together, atm):
Map of all of NZ, looking at the map below, if only Southland is an issue, I might just leave that region blank.
When the game starts, it's just the Maori groups (some civs, some CS's), none of which are scripted. They will have a re-done tech tree, and, later on (probably not v1, in other words), unique SPs.
At some point, the (NPC) Europeans will arrive (scripted). Major events, additional colonists, etc., will be scripted, however, it will be free-form enough that you could end up with, say, a French New Zealand.'
At the moment, I'm thinking only two victory types - domination and time. IMO, diplo and science don't make any sense, and cultural might be added back after the SPs are done.
Thoughts? The only reasons I'm making Europe NPC is because: A, they aren't there at the start, and B, the mods really focuses on the Maori, anyways.

 

[CivOasis]

Just thought of this.. not all of the Maori will possibly have UU or UB, will they?

As for the full-scale mod civs, I think subdividing Poly will be ok, because I can still pull off UU and UB for each civ. The only reason I questioned Rapa Nui, is that I'm not sure any of their leaders are known. (Unless you count their founding legend, but that's too mythical for my tastes, I'd rather have a poorly-known real leader first)

 

[CivOasis]

Ok, so I got the information on what lua events to use (and a resource to find more), but I don't know lua. Does anyone else, who's willing to either mod or give help on the subject?

 

[CivOasis]

If I make and post the maps, can I get you guys to place the cities and natural wonders you think are best?
Basically, I'd want the civs seperated, place & rename the cities, place city-states, etc.

 

[CivOasis]

Ok, some notes on the map (so far):
North is not at the top of the map, its on the right. Fits better that way.
I didn't include the Catham islands, will that be a problem?
It'll definitely require tweaking, I fell like I'm over exaggerating peninsulas atm.
I'm using maximum dimensions, and I'm currently doing the outlines (working south to north).

 

[Ahriman]

Long post:

Spoiler :

Maybe just have a line from the Rakaia river mouth west as the bottom - West Coast could be a source of Ponamu luxury resource.

Fair enough, works for me. But we'd have to be careful for balance that the south island civs didn't get too much of a resource advantage. Gameplay is more important than accuracy.

I was thinking about this, and wondered if there could be a mountain with a nearby settlement that has the 'Mount Ruapahu wonder' built

Erm, maybe, but Natural wonders seem to fit so much better.
A mod like this will require a ton of custom art anyway.

Your resources sound good, although I would throw gold in there to be on the West coast.

The problem is: Maori didn't mine gold. So in a Maori-oriented scenario, I'm not sure it would make much sense.
I suppose that mining (that revealed gold) could be present as a very high-end item in the tech-tree.

EDIT2: I found this, it's a map of tribal districts in NZ, could be useful:

Yes, though those are current tribes, and importantly those are tribes post-musket wars. For example, Te Ati Awa are from Taranaki, but they're also based in Wellington on that map and today, because during the Musket War period they came down to Wellington and conquered the locals.

So, what I could do is pre-set all of the cities (Is it like a Mexico City=Tenochtitlan thing over there, or are there European cities that weren't originally native?), and fill South Island with some City-States.

I would probably have each major Iwi start the game with a capital and maybe a settler or one other
I would have the only military city states be the Europeans, and code it so that military city states give
The problem with creating minor-iwi as maritime or cultural city states is that a European Customs social policy tree that boosted relations with city states wouldn't make much sense if there were non-European city states.

As for the scripting, I don't know how, but I think Gedemon does, I believe his WWII scenario used it. If I can get info from him, I'll take scripted events for the Europeans, and allow the Maori (who will be the only playable option) to do whatever they want. If that's possible, it also would solve the time-period issue, as I could script the entire European interaction (probably up until the end of the land wars, at which point the game would end, if it hadn't already).
Good or bad idea?

I could see a couple of British settler players (maybe some of the companies; like The New Zealand Company) showing up by script later in the game. They'd have superior tech and maybe UB palaces that gave them huge bonuses to gold and food growth, so they could grow very quickly and buy up a military (brought in from overseas).

The british could pop up and demand that you cede control of 'Te-Whanganui-a-tara', if you agree it changes to Wellington and becomes British, and if you refuse there is a severe diplomatic hit.

Maybe... but this sounds more complicated.

You have to realise that, for the most part, Maori didn't have cities, or towns per se. What they had were Pa, which were essentially fortified villages surrounded by palisades and usually a hill.

This is not quite true. Maori did have large villages/small cities, and particularly in northland/Auckland Waikato these were longterm settlements.
The Pa was just like a castle/citadel, where they would retreat in times of war. Mostly they lived in villages. There was some seasonal migration to different food source sites, but I don't think we need to model that.

One issue I could have, the geology of NZ, particularily Wellington, has changed a lot since the Maori arrived. Take, for example, Wellington:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:We..._animation.gif
This shows the reclaimation of land done by man, however:

Err... not quite, this is mostly reclamation done by earthquakes (ie uplift), not by man. There are some small bits of reclamation around the port, but the main uplift was geologic. Having said that, on the scale of a civ map, it isn't really worth worrying about these kinds of minor changes.

By the way, what Maori groups should be included in the scenario, both as civs and CSs?

See some of my earlier suggestions:

Te Arawa (Rotorua) might have religious bonuses.
Tuhoe (Ureweras) might have Iroquois-type forest bonuses.
Ngapuhi (northland) might have military bonuses (Hongi Hika was quite a conqueror)
Ngahti Whatua (Auckland) might have (European) city state bonuses, like Greece or Siam.
Ngai Tahu (south island) might have trade route bonuses.
Tainui (Waikato) might have agricultural bonuses? Or maybe diplomatic bonuses fit here?
Dunno about Ati Awa (Tarankai).

for starters.
Maybe we'd also want some in Bay of Plenty, and some in Wellington, and in Nelson.

There were Maori about as far south as Queenstown

This is not quite true. Maori did *travel* down to Queenstown on a seasonal basis, but they did not live there all year round. There were no villages down there. Too cold in winter.

The only reasons I'm making Europe NPC is because: A, they aren't there at the start, and B, the mods really focuses on the Maori, anyways.

I think this is the best design. Then we can design a tech tree and unit structure and social policy trees that make sense for Maori.

Just thought of this.. not all of the Maori will possibly have UU or UB, will they?

Its tough to think of UU/UBs for all the various tribes. I would however create some UAs which would help distinguish them. See above for some starter ideas. Some iwi could be trade oriented, some conquest oriented, some agricultural, some cultural, some diplomatic, etc. so there is still some variation.

 

[Pouakai]

Unless you wanted a Moriori city-state, then I don't think removing the CHATHAMS! would be a problem



Whoa... that was close. Anyway, That map specifically was manmade reclaimation around Lambton harbor specifically, it did not detail earthquake reclaimation.

 

[CivOasis]

Apologize for the typo in Chathams.

Ahriman, basically, this is what I'm thinking, atm, for Europe, resources, and cities:

Resources: Random. Not really that important for the scenario, and setting them would throw off balance.

Europe: Full blown civs, but, they aren't there at the start. Basically, at a set point, England and France will recieve their respective early (probably 3 or so) cities, which would be transferred from another civ, no diplomacy involved, cities just switch owners. Periodically, they would recieve new units (to represent immigrating colonists). As for representing Maori/Europe interactions, some stuff will be scripted, and the Maori will have a few mid-late techs to represent other portions (including, most likely, muskets).

Cities: Cities will be pre-set, and, if necessary, new ones will be added through lua, as opposed to settlers. This way, South Island doesn't get out of control, but can still be there. (Note that, when I make the Maori civ that won't be for the scenario, it will use a full city list).

As for the SPs, I'm waiting until the rest of the mod is done (or at least playable) before I sart monkeying around with those.

And for differentiating the groups, UAs only is what I thought of, as well. Would make more sense, I think.

 

[Pouakai]

I just thought of something - if we have 'settlers' - it is too easy for the Maori to win - simply DoW, and capture the settlers