Parthenon

[sampsa]

Makes sense on Music artist being the one for the golden age. I guess I should consider prioritising that more: I’d say I rarely get it (there seem so many other useful techs to be getting around that point). Do you go music before civil service, for example?

Yes, I'd go music before CS under normal circumstances. The biggest problem with music-line is that you are not guaranteed to win it and when you don't, you've set yourself back by quite a bit.

Regarding the cuirassiers break-out / end point...I agree that they are very powerful, but I find that they hit a bit of a brick wall against rifles. Normally I can only cap 1/2 AI before this happens, especially on larger maps or with a poorer start.

What do you do then, if the game isn’t won? Even with land you can often struggle to recover if you have no infrastructure in place (or at least that’s what I find)

It's important to develop a good intuition on the possible win date. Then you can fall back to plan B when you realize it's not going as initially planned. I don't think buildings are that important even there, once you have alpha/currency your empire can very flexibly switch between -mode and -mode.

I think it's also necessary to differentiate between cuirs to conquer/vassal 1-2 neighbors and going full cuir-conquest. I aim to go for the latter, because why not, but it's not always possible.

 

[shakabrade]

OTOH, again assuming cuirassier breakout, it makes a real impact very briefly, mostly during the golden age.

The numbers I'm coming up with are completely different, but I'm assuming teching beyond MT+gunpowder is valued at close to zero. So for me, the full value of GLib has to be realized between building it and winning lib, not such a huge window. I think a more accurate way of valuing GLib is looking at it's value in (4pt).

I'm sure your conclusions come from completely different assumptions.

Indeed. I was considering turns until Scientific Method. In Cuir breakout there is no SM ang GLib is totally avoidable and should be considered only with Marble. In Cavs/Tanks + Bombers combo push, it can have a valuable space. Also if you can Bulb a part of Chemistry for Steel. But for Cuirs, no need unless without food and with Marble.
Regarding considerations, I take into account the most likely scenario of having +75% research and no representation. Two free GS plus GLib give 8 raw GPP.

 

[drewisfat]

Parthenon fanboy here. Generally though I'll still want some failgold first though, either from building Parthenon in multiple cities or from Schwedy/SoZ if viable. I'm not a believer in National Epic and find Parthenon to outperform it. My ideal GA generation is from starving ~3 cities during GAs finishing them in reverse order (from weaker GP producers first) possibly priming the pump a bit beforehand. Parthenon is often a difference maker in getting 3 GP here instead of 2. NE is very misleading. You can write a theoretical argument on paper why NE+GLib > Parthenon, but in practice I'm getting 3 great people in that GA easier with Parthenon than with NE. Given the way gpp is generated with boosting your best gpp city, it's easy to get in a situation where no other cities contribute gpp even if you wanted them to. As each new person generated increases the cap, it's possible for a GLib + NE + specialists to always outgenerate other cities, and you just lose all those banked up points. A good player will avoid this of course, only go for gpp in your one mega city and claim this was very efficient gpp production for the cost of a cheap national wonder. However, I'm looking at the efficiency of generating GP from multiple cities during a GA and the efficiency of running GP in multiple cities that may not have much else to contribute. Sure, it's map dependent. If you have literally only one city with a food surplus it makes a whole lot of sense. Typically though I have several. Seafood cities especially should be running some GP. Or if I get Mids I'm going to want multiple cities running great people. By boosting every city, I find Parthenon's 50% outweighs NE's 100% in one city. Generally if I'm going aesthetics I'm looking at GLib because I have marble or IND, so Parthenon is going to be affordable. Yes there's a hammer difference, but it's smaller than it looks with bonuses and typically in the peace-til-Lib games I have hammers to spend here. Plus you may get some value in the big +10 culture output of Parthenon and denying it to the AI. Lastly there's the pollution aspect. On the surface NE gives +1 GA point while Parthenon gives +2 GA pts, so what am I talking about. Well the NE plan kind of assumes one city is producing most or all gpp so that pollution chance comes with every great person you get, while the Parthenon is at worst going to pollute 1/3 of your producers and possibly none! It's fairly common for me to half-build Parthenon in capital, then when Literature is finished switch to GLib and actually build Parthenon in my hammer city. It's been mentioned how you can rely on GLib to produce enough GS to bulb through what's needed - well that's not strictly true if you stick NE in it. Yes you can use GAs for GAs; however consider that generally if you're going the top of the tech tree you're eyeing winning the music race for a free GA already. I really want that first GS for Philo, to snowball a pacifism GA quicker. There's some chance of this not happening, especially if you didn't run scientists at all pre-GLib, or you used your first GS on an academy. There's also the chance of really bad luck (spawning multiple GAs + the free one from music) where you don't have a good way to use them all. Lastly, NE is a national wonder. Sticking it in a GLib capital, where you'll probably want Oxford if non-pangaea, costs you flexibility. Maybe I'd rather have HE or IW in there. Given the likely food surplus, Globe T or Moai might make sense as well.

I'm not going to all-in rush Parthenon or cry if I lose it, but I will choose it over the failgold. A TLDR analysis is, I'd say it's like 1.5 extra great people over the course of a game. Roughly comparing 1.5 trade missions and we're getting something like 5x the return of failgold, which is a big enough difference to be worth the delay.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

I'm not going to all-in rush Parthenon or cry if I lose it, but I will choose it over the failgold.

Sums up my thoughts. Glad to see someone with some credibility around here standing up for the Parthenon

As with most things Civ, it's situational; but being half-Philosophical for a good chunk of turns for the cost of 6 forests? I'll take that if I can.

 

[sampsa]

I was planning to make some spreadsheet calculating some typical -generation scenario during a GA with GLib+NE, Parth, both, neither. Too much on my hands now, but maybe I'll look into it later. Lots of fine points brought up already, but the truth is in the numbers.

 

[sampsa]

By boosting every city, I find Parthenon's 50% outweighs NE's 100% in one city

I have to admit I hadn't seriously considered Parthenon before until I yesterday had an Aha! moment:

But perhaps, under some circumstances, Parth beats GLib+NE?

Usually I just skip them all when going cuirs. Right now I'm not sure at all, but unfortunately often it just doesn't matter much as cuirs triumph anyway, making all the details moot.

As with most things Civ, it's situational; but being half-Philosophical for a good chunk of turns for the cost of 6 forests? I'll take that if I can.

6 forests turns into 2 cuirs though (or 4 HAs to be upgraded), which might lead to a faster attack if is the bottleneck, so it always depends on the details, like you say.

 

[Fippy]

An overall underrated wonder i'd say, maybe ever since AZ said on video he never builds that thing?
(jk but i remember him saying it)

For most conquest games SM is never needed, "worst case" are cannons + Rifles & Cavs.
I.e. if 2-3 remaining AIs reach Rifling+ and are overall too big for just slamming Cavs into their cities.
No harm in adding cannons to Cavs, esp if some of them become 2mp units via GG.

Normally there are many captured cities in those games, and Parthenon helps in a couple cos ofc we don't want Paci with 100 units running around.
Glib + NE also shines here ofc, one city continues GPP duty while others all make units.

 

[drewisfat]

I was planning to make some spreadsheet calculating some typical -generation scenario during a GA with GLib+NE, Parth, both, neither. Too much on my hands now, but maybe I'll look into it later. Lots of fine points brought up already, but the truth is in the numbers.

I will applaud you for all the effort you put in when you confirm my evaluations.
Unless you don't. In which case I'll call you a noob, point out all the impossible assumptions in such a complex game, and bring up how you ignored the value of the +10 culture bonus

 

[sampsa]

The issue is indeed coming up with assumptions that are fair for every line.

 

[Orion Pax]

Good to see I'm not alone in regularly being on the fence on whether to build this thing.

Question:
Are most of the takes here for Cuirs / Renaissance Conquest / Dom victories?

What would folks say Parthenon's value is in a Space Race?

 

[sampsa]

Question:
Are most of the takes here for Curs / Renaissance Conquest / Dom victories?

Yes, at least I have commented only cuirassier play.

What would folks say Parthenon's value is in a Space Race?

Should be a bit higher at least?

 

[shakabrade]

Question:
Are most of the takes here for Curs / Renaissance Conquest / Dom victories?

I play mostly conquest, preferably with Bombers and something and sometimes space and domination. Cuirs and Cavs are used in 30% of the games, I'd say. From what I see, most of the people beat deity with Cuirs. People in S&T do not post about cultural victories that much. Of course, Parthenon is probably the most important wonder for Cultural VC.

What would folks say Parthenon's value is in a Space Race?

I like it a lot. It is just that good space victory is often about taking at least one AI out early on and then you have problems investing into Parthenon as you need some failgold to get some trading chips and recover while forests are probably turned into catapults. Also, there is a chance to capture it. If you want to go to space after Cuir breakout, problem is that it gets obsolete soon.

EDIT:
One important point is that many are talking from Deity standpoint. I would say that on lower difficulties I could squeeze the Parthenon in much more often without huge opportunity costs.

 

[sampsa]

From what I see, most of the people beat deity with Cuirs.

I think pangaea-type maps are usually unplayable due to cuirs. Of course, you can restrict yourself to not using them if you really really want to.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Question:
Are most of the takes here for Cuirs / Renaissance Conquest / Dom victories?

What would folks say Parthenon's value is in a Space Race?

I think the great divide is between :
- "Reach an end tech and whip cities to size 4 and fight strike while you conquer"
- "Grow to cap and conquer your way to victory using any tech available while founding Sushi Corp."

The victory condition is not the issue. More so the city management and tech objectives (limited vs unlimited).
A limited tech objective can be associated with a cuirassier rush but it isn't a necessity. It is a necessity for a culture win.
And I think the marble wonders can find their use from axe to swords to maces break-outs and upwards. You know the saying : "When you're in the hole, get a GP."

Keep in mind there are severe culture gaps on these boards.
Some people say you do not need more than two Libraries. I would claim Org Rel is the best civic save for Slavery.

 

[Fish Man]

Yes, at least I have commented only cuirassier play.

Should be a bit higher at least?

@Orion Pax

Near worthless, because in space games you want communism as fast as possible, which unfortunately requires SM, which in turn ruins your GL/Parthenon fancy setup.

 

[sampsa]

Very simple.
If you go Civil Service before Music, you should not have a claim at the Music artist.
If you're interested in the Music artist, it's probably safe to secure Aesthetics and Litterature monopolies. And it probably implies you have marble.
There is no reason why you should get the Music artist if you have no interest in those previous techs.

It's possible we do not play the same settings. If you can Lib Biology before getting the Music artist, good on you, I can learn one thing everyday !

Again, a post filled with nonsensical assumptions. If you really wanted to learn, you'd ask.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Again, a post filled with nonsensical assumptions. If you really wanted to learn, you'd ask.

My pleasure.
If you research Music before Civil Service and have no interest in neither Aesthetics nor Litterature, what do you do in the meantime ? How do you do it ?

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup
The setup you mention sounds alot like what I find myself in, when I want to bulb philosophy, but don't have marble.
Then I usually go aestethics (tradebait, and sometimes failgold if gold/ivory).
Then I go drama instead of CoL to open up the path to philosophy.

While I'm there, I notice alot of AIs have techs like MC/Currency/CoL/Theology. Perhaps even compass.
There is really not that many techs that makes sense to go for, since it's likely that most of them will be available in trades soon enough anyway.
Then it makes perfect sense to go for music I think.
Something along those lines tend to land me in that situation at least.

Engineering or Astro bulbs is also something that can make you want to avoid CS.

 

[civac]

You can bulb Engineering with a GS?

 

[Fippy]

Yup but only without fishing (i think Calendar, Compass and Optics are all higher).
And you need Aesthetics.