Patch suggestion MOD (PtW version)

Just to know that late Ironclads were not really much slower then sailing ships.

Early yes, late no.

P.S.
Although i don't have idea how good would AI handle that.
(I assume that he would still build them exculsively comapred to sailing ships, which would make escort of Transports slower)

P.P.S.
But at this point I don't think that it's really needed.
 
Here are some plans for future versions.

Galic Swordsmen goes back to 50 shields (there were too many divided views about value of original Celtic UU, so I'll take conservative value).

Someone pointed out at AU thread (at Apolyton forums), that 50 cost Keshik can becomes too much powerful, since he'll be +40% more cost effective at attack, and barely, 6.7% less effective at defense then Knight. Now these benefits alone would make a good UU, without need of further boosts, like better movement at Mountains and Hills.
But since such change (removing mountain movement) would remove some Keshik flavor, so something else need to be done.

So they'll I'll give them blitz attack ability and cost of 70 instead.
Blitz is in flavor with quick rushes with mounted archers anyway (attack, withraw, attack).

At the end you get an UU full of special abilities (better movment on hills & mountains, no need for Iron, ZOC and blitz), but with lower defense value of 2. Pretty unique, huh?
 
Just make em cost 60 again, and make em ignor forest, mountain and hills in thier movement... While in enemy territory they'll have almost the range of ansar (better in moutnains, worse if lots of 1 movement lands) and the don't require iron and have a star by thier movement (which is sopposed to do something i think...)
 
When I down load the .bix file from the first post and look at it in PTW editor most of the upgrade pathes are wrong, archer goes to berserk.... is it just me with this particular mod?
 
Originally posted by Meisier
When I down load the .bix file from the first post and look at it in PTW editor most of the upgrade pathes are wrong, archer goes to berserk.... is it just me with this particular mod?

It is normal. The archer upgrade to bersker to longbowman. If you play the vikings, you will be able to upgrade your archer to bersek. The others civ can't built berseks anyway. This is the same for most of the upgrade path (swordmen upgrade to gallic swordmen for example).
 
@ player1 fanatic: :goodjob: I'm currently playing your mod. with some changes:

- Carrier and batleship should be slower than destroyers. Movement for 5 for these two.
- Great Wall give free walls again. Why you changed this?
- Keshlik don't need many changes. I only add them the hills movements bonus.
- I tweak the conqistador a bit. They are supposed to be mounted hand cannoners look at this picture :http://www.astro.ufl.edu/wcb/schools/607/601/fdoppen/1/files/shenaapril.ppt

So I make them like this: 4 attack, 3 movement and salpeter is required. That make them a very good unit but not an overpowerful one.

I also want to make the Manathan Project a small wonder. Is someone know if it will still permit all civ to built nukes if only one is built?
 
Just make em cost 60 again, and make em ignor forest, mountain and hills in thier movement... While in enemy territory they'll have almost the range of ansar (better in moutnains, worse if lots of 1 movement lands) and the don't require iron and have a star by thier movement (which is sopposed to do something i think...)

It could be that way, but there is no some flavor reson to make them faster in forest. And even then, flats are much more common then mountains.

I think I'll try them with blitz and 60 cost (mind you, Keshik is the unit that benefits the least from blitz), and if after some time they become unbalanced, I would change them again.
(that "*" just means that they move better in mountains)

- Carrier and batleship should be slower than destroyers. Movement for 5 for these two.

When I designed movment for modern naval units, I tried to make them distinctive from sailing ships.
So obviously modern units (even slow transports) should get at least 6 movement (compared to 4 of sailing ships, and slower nuclear subs with 5).
Now, that would mean having even faster Destoyers which could give moevemnt of 8 with Magellan wonder. Such movemnt would make bombing enemy ships pretty difficult (rebase every other turn, since bomber range is just 8).

Now, since difference in speed between "modern" Destoyers and Battleships are not really too much great, having them with same movment won't be a problem (and would keep flavor of original Civ3). It's usually more difference in manuverablity then in speed anyway.

- Great Wall give free walls again. Why you changed this?

I though that combo of free walls and better walls is maybe to much (instant +100% defense).

And somehow I realised that getting extra doubled defense for walled cities is good on its own. Especily in MP games. Not that much in SP, since human player is usually in offense. And its really not problem to buy city walls in needed cities (just 10-20 shields).

And, when in doubt, I take conservative settings.

- Keshlik don't need many changes. I only add them the hills movements bonus.

I've played with Keshik and they seamed lacking for me.
I really felt inferior when battling opponents with Riders, Samurai or even Elephants.
And when attacking I needed those hills and mountains just to keep those units alive against enemy counterattakcs.

Not to say that Mongol trait combo is not perfect (Mil is OK, but Exp would be only good in MP and you ahve no early UU).

I'll try adding blitz, and if gets powerful after extra testing I'll remove it (blizting on defense can be similary done with 2 longbowmen, and on offense against pikemen, you have just 10-20% chance to lose no more then 1hp and make second attack an option, not to say that you are pretty vunerable with just 2 defense points).

- I tweak the conqistador a bit. They are supposed to be mounted hand cannoners look at this picture :http://www.astro.ufl.edu/wcb/school.../shenaapril.ppt

So I make them like this: 4 attack, 3 movement and salpeter is required. That make them a very good unit but not an overpowerful one.

It depends.
First, you will never need knights again (and I think that they are designed to be used with Knights and Cavarly together).
2nd, they will look to simialr to Ansar.

And, if you keep "all as roads", then they'll have broken movment of 9.

With current 3/2/2, all as roads, cost 50, they are really not bad at all.
First, if you battle the pikemen, they are pretty OK (since they cost only 50 shields). Then, you can take out more expensive Knights and Cavarly on open. Plus you can do some nice pillaging and worker slaving.

I also want to make the Manathan Project a small wonder. Is someone know if it will still permit all civ to built nukes if only one is built?

Don't know about this.
Havn't tested.
 
Version 1.22 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.22

Foot Unit flag added to Scout, Explorer, Leader and King units, in order to make them transferable by helicopters. Since these units already got Airlift ability before, there is no good reason to prevent their transport by helicopters (it even makes some interesting strategies for king units).

Galic Swordsmen cost is changed back to 50 shields. Some testing showed that last cost reduction was not really needed.

I realized that cost of 50 shields for Keshik from last version of MOD was too much. So I tried a different approach in boosting Keshik. It will get original price of 60, but also a blitz ability (can attack multiple times in single turn). It goes well with flavor of "mounted archers" (attack, withdraw, attack). Also, Keshik is probably a unit that benefits the least from blitz (it's difficult to blitz Pikemen, and due to low Keshik defense they are easy to be counterattacked).


Note: Since BIX format is same for both 1.14f and 1.21f PtW patch, you could use this MOD with 1.14f patch too.
 
I moded the Conquetodor almost the same way.

Here's my cut from the mod that I've made starting with player1's efforts

Conquistadors are redone. They are now a 4.3.4 unit that ignors all terrian movement peanalties (the ability of treating all terrain like roads is gone). They require saltpeaper like any gun wielding unit. The effect is a shorter range but more powerfull version than they where before when attacking, and they move very quick though your own territory and those whome you have ROP with!! The cost remains 70, which means that these are an alternative to knights,... however they do not upgrade to calvary. In a related change the spanish can now build explorers. The conquistadors are not flaged as explorers (and were not) so this should work fine with the AI, and the human player can use them more freely in an AI's zone that he does not have ROP with, sense the AI doesn't ask them leave. For some reason in the rules the Conquistadors upgraded to the explorer. Thats removed.


I also took a differnt stance to the berserker...

Again a cut and paste...

Bezerk gets defense increase to 3 and moved to Feadulism. They now replace Medivial Infantry for the Scandanavians, and the scandanavians can now build Longbowmen. Berzerks now need Iron. Reasoning -they are very expensive, and the AI has a hard time using them well. A human player on land will have Pikeman traveling along for added defense on land anyway... the AI just sets them out by themselves to get picked off... poof 70 shilds gone... and the AI rarly uses them effectivly as amphibious forces. The iron requirment is added for two reasons 1. I don't see how they can have those hudge axe heads without it, and 2. It will help keep smaller scandanavian tribes from building them instead of Longbowmen since it is more likly that they will not have iron. Scandanavian swordsman upgrade to beserkers.. for the same cost as horseman to knights... The scandanavians can build berzerkers and longbowmen at the same time (other tribes cannot build the longbow and Medivial infantry at the same time, since longbow upgrades to medivial infantry)

Aside from these two rather radicle changes I've get my mod fairly conservative... although i've been eying the ability to give extra bonas HP to units. If extra one extra HP where givin to the some over-powerd early units instead of increased attack (immortals, mounted warrior, beserk?) do you think it would be enopgh?
 
Originally posted by tonberry


It is normal. The archer upgrade to bersker to longbowman. If you play the vikings, you will be able to upgrade your archer to bersek. The others civ can't built berseks anyway. This is the same for most of the upgrade path (swordmen upgrade to gallic swordmen for example).

Thanks, after posting the above about the archer to bezerker I realized (the next morning) how the upgrades have to work with the rules... and made several changes of my own. :)
 
Originally posted by player1 fanatic


It could be that way, but there is no some flavor reson to make them faster in forest. And even then, flats are much more common then mountains.

I think I'll try them with blitz and 60 cost (mind you, Keshik is the unit that benefits the least from blitz), and if after some time they become unbalanced, I would change them again.
(that "*" just means that they move better in mountains)

I was refering to them being the the only "knight" that has zone of control. :) and As for flavor... the mogles basicly congured all of north asia, china and as far west as Poland with thier Keshik, that has every terrian except jungle. I'm very certain that their small horses riddin by small (in stature) men could handle most of the no under brush forest typicle in that sort of climate.

Those horses where SMALL - saw a "full size" replica in the Seatle Art museum over christmas, If I sat on it my feet could touch the ground (I'm 6')). The plaque described it as a very fine clay statue of a very powerfull war horse...


Originally posted by player1 fanatic

Now, since difference in speed between "modern" Destoyers and Battleships are not really too much great, having them with same movment won't be a problem (and would keep flavor of original Civ3). It's usually more difference in manuverablity then in speed anyway.

Ok, but I agree with tonberry that Destroyers should be faster. as you say they are more manuverable... or agile, have a easier time catching or fleeing the enemy, which is what that extra movement really represents.

The only changes I made to ships movement is made carriors move at 5 and destroyers at 6. I agree that sailing ships should be more slower than mordern ships. I just can't think of a solution that I like...


Originally posted by player1 fanatic

First, you will never need knights again (and I think that they are designed to be used with Knights and Cavarly together).
2nd, they will look to simialr to Ansar.

NO NO NO - violently disagree!! If knights where meant to be played with Cavalry than they wouldn't upgrade to them! There so cheap to upgrade and Calvarly is so much better than any "Knight" that I don't know why anybody would play with knights (even taking into acount the greater change in cost you've implemented). And I get really frustrated at the stuped AI that doesn't upgrade his before sending them at me ...

This bezerk Idea with knights - that might be cool with the Conquestadors... maybe a 3.3.2 unit that treats all terrian as roads. He could pillage twice... that might be more fitting with thier theme... than giving them attack of 4.
 
Originally posted by Meisier
Ok, but I agree with tonberry that Destroyers should be faster. as you say they are more manuverable... or agile, have a easier time catching or fleeing the enemy, which is what that extra movement really represents.

The thing is that modern Carriers have speeds of 27-34 knots, while modern Destroyers have 30-40 knots. So there are some Destoyers which are slwoer then Carriers too.

Not to say that Tranports are lower then both (15-20knots).

NO NO NO - violently disagree!! If knights where meant to be played with Cavalry than they wouldn't upgrade to them! There so cheap to upgrade and Calvarly is so much better than any "Knight" that I don't know why anybody would play with knights (even taking into acount the greater change in cost you've implemented). And I get really frustrated at the stuped AI that doesn't upgrade his before sending them at me ...

This bezerk Idea with knights - that might be cool with the Conquestadors... maybe a 3.3.2 unit that treats all terrian as roads. He could pillage twice... that might be more fitting with thier theme... than giving them attack of 4.

Not Knights with Cavarly,
It's Conq. with Cavalry or Conq. with Knights.

Since defense of enemy mobile units is SAME in both cases, and pillaging is as effective too.
Surely you won't use them form frontal attacks (that's job of Knights or Cavarly, depending from your tech).



P.S.
Anyway, I find your UU ideas intersting.

But, your version of Conq. can't be used before you get Gunpowder. Right?
Also, it makes Knights unneeded (Conq. are better), exept in reresve to wait Cavalry upgarde.
Plus, by removing "upgarde to Explorer", you removed ability of other civs to upgrade their Scouts to Explorers.

It goes like this Scout-->Conq.-->Explorer.
Spain can't build explorer so it automaticly becomes:
Scout-->Conq.
Other civs can't build Conq. so it automaticly becomes:
Scout-->Explorer


As foer Bezerk, do you use modif. that it gets atatck of 5 (or its' original 6). Do you keep Amp. Ability?

If you keep 6, it means that you just made this unit very powerful At least for human player). He can now use it both for Amp. and land attacks well.

If it's 5, then OK, it's beffed version of Med. Infantry anyway (+1att, +1def, amp.)
 
Good point on the explorer upgrade path. I'm going to change that so scouts upgrade to exploreres. - now changed...

I'm having a real hard time balancing that bezerker... I agree that a human can use him much better than the AI. I need to play the scandinavians and see just how much of an advantage it is. I'm hopeing that the 50% increase in attack isn't too much... it probably is though... but I want the AI to be able to use him effectivly.

I ran some stats on if his attack was 5 and he had an additional HP, wasn't good... he won even more often versus a fortified Pikeman or musketman than if he had an attack of 6, although not much more.

On Conq... They can be useful for frontal attacks against a civ that is behind in the science race. If they have a high enoph win ratio they can conquer their civ several turns sooner. Other than that... no their a special forces unit.

I think that its ok for the Conq to replace the knight for the spanish, specialy since when I play they don't... I play emperor or diety so usually at least a few tribes are ahead or neck and neck with me in the science race. This means I can't wait for Conq... I have to use knights because they are avilable about 35 turns (or more) earlier... by the time I get navigation I usually have almost got Military tradition... sometimes I have.

The destroyers... yes thats true but... they are more agile... shrug.

Sorry about the confusion about the Conq. with knights and Calvary... I agree that Conq are meant to be used with Calvary... knights if you don't have Calvary yet I soppose... but I don't see any real need for Conq to be weaker than knights.

I gave warriors an extra HP and tried it out. It really dosn't help your warriors very much at all versus units with a defense or attack or 2 but it does for those with 1, which I thought was appropriate. It also means that the barbariane warriors have 3 hp... which makes a big difference in how dangerous they are... i liked that extra challage early in the game.

Also tried the Immortals out (same game) with just 3.2.2 with an extra HP. They where defenitly less powerful than with an attack of 4, but with every veteran immortal equal to everybodie elses elite swordsman they got the job done!!

Haven't tried out the Mounted warrior yet... I think I'll try out the scandinavians next and see just how much of an advantage those bezerkes can be...
 
Having now tried him out, I don't think the Berzerk is overpowerd.
As a reminder He know replaces medival ifantry for the scandinavians in my version of the mod, and is a 6.3.1 with amp. Cost of 70. The main reason that I don't think that he is overpowerd is simply because he can't bloody retreat when he is losing, and his ratios to musketmen versus swordsmen to pikemen are worse (because of more cities being over pop6) .... and because he replaces medival infantry. It took me much longer to upgrade my swordsman to bezerkers than it would have to get medival infantry... I will not be using them in land battles - on the offensive any way - in the future. Give my knights anyday!! And in some situations I would much rather upgrade my swordsman all at once for a pittance rather than spend the fortune neccesary for bezerkers.

They are very good defensivly, attacking knights and calvary in your territory, as long as you have a knight to finish off the mounted unit when it retreats.

I sopose that thier amphibious ability would be great... in certain particlular cituations - assuming that you have the navel advatage over your enemy... and you still want to use them before the enemy has musketmen, so that means they travel in a boat that can only carry two of them. This ups the effective cost by 15 shields per bezerker, and of course you will want to take out thier navy before you put a boat worth 180 shieds in harms way.... basicly i'm saying that getting astronomy is almost a must, and by then its even odds that your enemy will have musketmen...
 
Personnaly, I think that your version would be OK, if you take out Amp. Assaul ability.

As for me I don't see any probelms, blance-wise, with Bezerk when played by human player, to make it more powerful then now (and I try to keep conservative aproach).


P.S.
I have them with attack of 5, flavor wise, and since they upgarde to Riflemen (which has attack of 5). That together with cheaper cost of 50, makes them fine (and not so "tragic" when defending against Knights).
 
I'm leaning torwards your approach... make em cheaper and less powerful. Like maybe replaceing Medival Infantry, cost of 40-50, 4.2.1, with an extra HP, and AMP, probably 50 cost. The extra HP will make them offensivly just like yours (for a veteran unit, except it will take a little longer to heal) and they will get a defensive bonas, but not near as much as if it they where 4.3.1. Also thinking of giving them zone of control as a flavor.

I wish the game developers would have seperated out the "Ability to retreat/Ability to stop those who can normal retreat from retreating" aspect from movement, and I'd have called the ability "flanking". If they had I think I'd give my original bezerkers a movement of two, with no ability to retreat... o well.
 
I've been trying to come up with a solution to this problem that dosen't increase ships movement more than it already is... here is an idea... what do you think?

What if... ocean and sea squares cost 2 movement points. All modern vessels ignored the extra cost of ocean and sea squares as also do the frigate and galleon class vessels. The Carvel ignores cost of movement in sea squares. Frigate and Galleon class vessels have their movement reduced by 1, to 3. All modern vessels have their movement unchanged from original, which makes them almost twice as fast as sailing vessels. (Well, I'd still want to increase carrier speed to 5, and I like increasing sub movement as well because it makes them more dangerous.) Since Galleys and Carvel have three movement points they will always be able to move 2 squares. The only thing that I don't like about this solution is that it will negatively affect the human player (and I guess the AI who gets the lighthouse wonder, when their using Galleys) when we try to find lands over sea/ocean before the advances that make such movement safe.
 
Hmm...
I've seen that ship movemt idea before.

But, to me, it just looks too radical for one conservative mod.

P.S.
Retreat for move-1 units would be great.
Guerrilas would be perfect for that.

But, as you said, that option does not exsist.
 
Posted this in the other thread, but I really play PTW so I'm reposting this here.

I really like your mod, but I have a few suggestions:

Instead of increasing the Guerrilla's attack, I recommend just leaving them the way they are but setting them so they hide nationality. That's how Guerrillas really work, for harassing the enemy (like Privateers but on land).

Please increase berseker's attack back up to 6. I don't even play Scandinavia, but by reducing their attack to 5 you really weakened them. Berserkers are supposed to be a formidable offensive force but they have almost no defense. Any fast unit can easily tear them apart because they can attack them before they can get close enough to attack. Due to their piss-poor defense they should have amazing offense, even if it stretches realism a bit. If you're really being conservative, I think you should just leave well enough alone on units (like the Berserker) that really don't need any changes.

AEGIS cruisers should have the ability to carry a couple of cruise missiles. Their bombard and stuff should be inferior to the battleship and destroyer, but that's made up for by their cruise missile and detect invisible capabilities. It might also make sense to give them radar.
 
It's really a difference between multiplayer and single player. In SP the AI doesn't do well on offense, so the Great Wall needs a major boost to make it worthwhile to build. In MP the Great Wall is one of the best wonders even without a mod - letting it give walls too makes it overpowered.
 
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