Patch v3.13 change list

Worth the wait?


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This is ridiculous. Bts should have been perfect when they brought it out. Now i should be happy they patched it after several weeks?
Perfect is patently impossible, given the multitude of computer differences. Unless you mean less than perfect, or, less than I think of when I use the word perfect. In which case, perhaps "perfect" isn't the best word to use here.

Perhaps, "Bts should have been more perfect when they brought it out." That would make more sense. Then we would be looking at examining the level of effort we as consumers should expect and require to make Civ more robust with different platforms and to detect internal gameplay flaws before release. We would of course have to keep in mind that if we ask Firaxis to increase their efforts in that regard, they would then be forced to reduce the resources they spend on actual development of features.

Personally, I'm perfectly content with their decisions. All that it takes is a little patience, and we get what we want. When the alternative is to cater to our impatience, and to have less features? No way!

Wodan
 
^^ Well we're not really talking about performance issues here. That I could see. No one can expect any company to design something that is stable on every single combination of hardware and software that's out there.

These issues are bugs that everyone sees - problems with the mechanics of the game. I'm very excited about the patch, and glad they're still putting effort into perfecting the game. It just seems like game developers do not play their own product enough before release. Some of the bugs I've seen would be painfully obvious when playing a game all the way through.

I just don't understand that. I've seen this same issue on other titles as well. Just sit back and play the game a couple times. I personally know that it's hard to detect bugs in your own code. Bring in some outside people to just play it then and start asking questions.
 
I appreciate the heads up by alexman and Firaxis. Its nice to have this change list even if the patch still takes weeks more to be released. I also appreciate the patch of course. I'm patiently waiting to give BTS a second chance. For now it collects dust.

I do not appreciate the state in which BTS was released. I dont think the game was ready. I think Firaxis tried to do too much. Quantity trumped quality and the game suffers. The new elements (Espionage, Corporation..) which justify this XP as being more than a simple mod are flawed. And the CivCom mods are watered down which affect the fun factor and replayability. I'd have loved to have seen some of those mods without the content restrictions. Better to have half as many mods with fuller content, than to restrict the mods so much.

A separate media pack patch both for the mods, and for the main game (ethnic units etc) seems reasonable (from consumer side). As long as it was available the day of BTS release. But since that wasn't they way it happened, I had hoped that perhaps this patch would at least contain some of the missing art etc

I am happy a patch is forthcoming, but from the OP patch list alone, I vote No it is not worth the wait. Too little too late... and growing. It is good that the elements which justify this expansion pack may finally work a bit better. But it is not good that we have had to wait so long. It is not good that the game was released with its core parts working so poorly. It is no good for the fans nor the franchise if segments of the fan base should move on after a buggy Civ4, a weak Warlords, and an overambitious BTS which falls so short of the hype.


*All that said.. the extra development time that Firaxis has put into Civ4 and its XPs for the purpose of modability is well appreciated by me. I can understand how this takes time from features etc. But if you dont have the materials to build a quality 5,200 sq ft home; don't build it shoddy, build it smaller. I for one would rather have a quality cottage over a ramshackle mansion.
 
Perhaps, "Bts should have been more perfect when they brought it out." That would make more sense.
Patently impossible. You cannot be "more" perfect or "less" perfect -- either you are perfect or you are not perfect. Perhaps, "BtS should have been closer to perfect when they brought it out."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Now where's that patch again?
 
Actually, if I had a choice between a Civ game with bugs (but dedicated support to fix them and improve the game) and a 100% bug free Civ game without any additional support, I'd always choose the former. The reason is that a game as complex as Civ is always developing. There's a lot of room for improvements apart from pure bug fixing. And I *want* Firaxis to improve their product. I very much want them to improve the AI beyond simple bugfixing, for example, and I'm glad that they do that. The approach "Fix all the bugs and *then* release it" simply doesn't make sense for a product like Civ - you need to adapt and improve the game after release anyways, so you can as well spend this time to work on the bugs that have slipped through prior to release.

Also, I might add that gameplay-wise, Civ4 was really solid out of the box. It was very enjoyable even for people who never ever patched the game. Compared to many similar products (some of them being unplayble out of the box due to gameplay bugs), Civ4 has had much less gameplay bugs.

Of course, they *do* have to fix the remaining bugs, but I'm confident that they will, so I can live with the bugs that still remain for now.
 
<whine> Are we there yet? </whine>

Sheesh, people. There has been no announced release date. It will be released when they feel it is ready to be released. *If* they feel it's ready to be released. If their QA finds a serious bug, 3.13 may not get released and we may get a 3.14 after another round of QA. Or maybe a 3.15, or a 3.22.

...

So can we cut out the "When will it get released?" posts? They're as annoying as a five year old in the backseat saying "Are we there yet?". It will be released when it gets released, and I'm just happy to see the list of changes.

Zienth

Amen! :goodjob:
 
I wan't this patch so bad! Can't wait much longer...
 
heeeere patchy patch patchy.......... i wanna strat a new game... :)
 
I really don't understand the sense of this poll. Does it mean "worth to wait to buy it"? Or for those who already bought "Worth to wait to play until this patch is out?" or for those who bought and still playing even without the fixes "Worth to wait to release GotM or HoF-Gauntlet?"

Anyone helps my out of my disintegration problem!

Same here. Seems like it's a feel-good poll for Firaxis developers. How on Earth can anyone vote "yes" when it hasn't been released? What if it takes another month or 2 or 6? Wanna talk about "patently impossible?" It's patently impossible to decide whether it's "worth the wait" until the "wait" has been determined. Until then, one key variable is constantly changing.

As for the other key variable (i.e., the "worth"), it's patently impossible to establish "worth" until you can answer questions like: Did it download and install correctly? Did it operate as promised? Did it create new, unacceptable bugs (see, e.g., 3.03)? Does it slow gameplay? Etc., etc.

Perfect? I never expected perfect. But how much QA does it take to make sure after the first patch that Mehmed's leaderhead is not totally red or that Wang Kon is not a ghost with only his eyebrows and mustache visible? Those are not inevitable bugs. That's just careless QA.

What bugs me (pardon the expression) is not the so much that the software was released for sale with bugs. Like it or not, that's the state of the world. What bothers me is this self-congratulatory patch shell game: "It's ready, but we can't release it. Tell us how great we are."

I'm sorry, but voting "yes" before the "worth" and the "wait" are determined is just encouraging Firaxis to be slower and shoddier.
 
I love how everyone wants a perfect game, released quickly, and at a cheap price. Does everyone truly, honestly believe that Civ4 is the only game Firaxis develops and that they have an unlimited budget for testing and development? Also, after spending all the time coding the game and working on it endlessly for weeks and months, do you think the coders want to spend all their time playing it looking for the most minute of bugs? Remember, all the "bugs" we've found are the result of MILLIONS of people playing the game. Unless you want to pay $200 for the game and its expansion, there is no way ANY company will have that amount of resources to catch everything.

The patch will come out when they've deemed it ready to come out. If you want to rush them and force it out now, then be prepared to face a lot of nasty bugs that they may not have had the time to catch because people DEMANDED that it be released now. You can't have it quickly and bug-free. It's one or the other. Go to EVERY computer game message board out there and you will see just as many bug reports, if not more. To say "this game is not worth it because of all the bugs" is laughable. This is a GREAT game and I love playing it. The patch will be out when it's ready to be released. There's more important things in life than getting worked up over a videogame.
 
Actually, if I had a choice between a Civ game with bugs (but dedicated support to fix them and improve the game) and a 100% bug free Civ game without any additional support, I'd always choose the former. The reason is that a game as complex as Civ is always developing. There's a lot of room for improvements apart from pure bug fixing. And I *want* Firaxis to improve their product.
I agree. I feel though that Warlords was not supported very well. But I do have faith that BTS will be different. I understand the bugs bit and how all systems cannot possibly be tested etc. And how the game evolves due to the benefit of such a large fan base. And I am appreciative of the fact that Firaxis takes time to tweak the game based on our feedback. Thats in everyones best interest.

But it is the gameplay problems of major features that bug me. I'd have rather waited till the Christmas season for the release of a game whose major features are solid; than to wait months for a patch to make the game whole. Leave the patches for genuine bug fixes, minor tweaks, and final spit and polish. I dont think patches should be used as a crutch to extend failed release deadlines as relates to major aspects of gameplay (such as the flawed Espionage and Corporations in BTS).
 
I love how everyone wants a perfect game, released quickly, and at a cheap price. Does everyone truly, honestly believe that Civ4 is the only game Firaxis develops and that they have an unlimited budget for testing and development? Also, after spending all the time coding the game and working on it endlessly for weeks and months, do you think the coders want to spend all their time playing it looking for the most minute of bugs? Remember, all the "bugs" we've found are the result of MILLIONS of people playing the game. Unless you want to pay $200 for the game and its expansion, there is no way ANY company will have that amount of resources to catch everything.

The patch will come out when they've deemed it ready to come out. If you want to rush them and force it out now, then be prepared to face a lot of nasty bugs that they may not have had the time to catch because people DEMANDED that it be released now. You can't have it quickly and bug-free. It's one or the other. Go to EVERY computer game message board out there and you will see just as many bug reports, if not more. To say "this game is not worth it because of all the bugs" is laughable. This is a GREAT game and I love playing it. The patch will be out when it's ready to be released. There's more important things in life than getting worked up over a videogame.

Balderdash! No one expects "perfect' and "bug-free." That's a straw man argument. As is "this game is not worth it because of all the bugs." Who the heck is saying that? And we passed "quickly and bug-free" a long time ago. How about "relatively soon" and "better?" As for the fact that Firaxis makes other games, I'm sorry, but that doesn't give them a pass on QA. Each game is it's own profit center, so each games deserves it's own resources. By your logic, the more games a company makes and sells, the less reliable the games need to be.

As for the platitude: "There's more important things in life than getting worked up over a videogame," I'll just say there are better things to do with one's time than defending a videogame company!
 
just to add my 2 cents to this discussion:
BtS was definitely rushed out the door with minimal testing of the final release version (no offense meant to the betatesters around here). But if you look at the problems of take2 recently they desperately needed to push it out of the door after their financial troubles mounted - I am not even sure that Firaxis had much influence on this time table (since they are now owned by take2) so I am glad that at least they do something to alleviate part of the damage done by rushing a barely finished product out of the door. Of course the 3.03 patch debacle did not help either...
That said BtS is a great game and even with the bugs in it worth the money spent on it (apart from those guys who cannot even install or play it of course)...
:hide:
 
Would you guys stop it? Jesus Christ. A "barely finished" product? Give me a break.

Have you guys ever actually played a game that was barely finished out the door, yet still a good game? Because if you think BTS was bad, then you have a long painful life as a gamer ahead of you.

Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines, anyone? While an awesome game, THIS was one that (due to no fault of the devs) WAS released unfinished.

I really don't think you guys were speaking from experience when you say that this game was released "unfinished."

This game has, what, balance issues for the poison water mission, inflation problems with corporations being the highlighted bugs here? A few other annoying balance issues? A few relatively minor bugs that the majority have never even noticed?

No, this is just a typical complex game that requires a second real patch. In VTMB, I had to enter a console command to be able to even finish the single player. Ya. THAT is unfinished.

I would MAYBE agree this patch has taken a bit too long, but then again it might just be that this is an extremely complex game and probably requires more playtesting than your average game to make sure they don't release a buggy patch.

If you guys want to complain about something, complain about the 3.03 patch. While a simple honest mistake by Firaxis, at least it is a legitimate complaint. But even then, unless you needed the fix from the patch, you can just play 3.02.
 
completly agree!!!

stop crying kids... be quiet it's good for your health!!

3.03 was a mistake... OK
firaxis is sorry about that

just wait now... anger only leads you to nothing!

tout vient à point à qui sait attendre!
 
I don't have the time to wade through 15 pages of posts, so I'll ask here:

Does anybody know when this patch is actually going to be released?

I only ask because I really want to start a new game now, but I don't want to start with 3.02 and then abandon the game when the new patch comes out.

Thanks in advance for any helpful reply.
 
:deadhorse:

Sigh........

We don't Know!! It will come out when it's ready.
 
Balderdash! No one expects "perfect' and "bug-free." That's a straw man argument. As is "this game is not worth it because of all the bugs." Who the heck is saying that? And we passed "quickly and bug-free" a long time ago. How about "relatively soon" and "better?" As for the fact that Firaxis makes other games, I'm sorry, but that doesn't give them a pass on QA. Each game is it's own profit center, so each games deserves it's own resources. By your logic, the more games a company makes and sells, the less reliable the games need to be.

As for the platitude: "There's more important things in life than getting worked up over a videogame," I'll just say there are better things to do with one's time than defending a videogame company!

Have you read through the forums here where each and every day someone is complaining and saying that this game is completely unplayable because of these bugs? Take three seconds and look in the bug reports forum or all the pages in this thread. I'm not trying to defend Firaxis here. I'm trying to make people use their heads a bit and think about what they are saying before they say it. I can guarantee you that more than 90% of the people doing all the whining and crying have NEVER worked in the Videogame industry, or ANY industry where resources and timelines impact the final product. Too many people are just the end-user who expects everything to be fine and go their way and wants monetary retribution or punishment to others if they don't get what they want. That drives me nuts, and it happens with more than just videogames. I hate seeing that type of behavior and attitude approved of anywhere, hence why it seems to hit that nerve for me. :crazyeye:
 
Have you read through the forums here where each and every day someone is complaining and saying that this game is completely unplayable because of these bugs? Take three seconds and look in the bug reports forum or all the pages in this thread. I'm not trying to defend Firaxis here. I'm trying to make people use their heads a bit and think about what they are saying before they say it. I can guarantee you that more than 90% of the people doing all the whining and crying have NEVER worked in the Videogame industry, or ANY industry where resources and timelines impact the final product. Too many people are just the end-user who expects everything to be fine and go their way and wants monetary retribution or punishment to others if they don't get what they want. That drives me nuts, and it happens with more than just videogames. I hate seeing that type of behavior and attitude approved of anywhere, hence why it seems to hit that nerve for me. :crazyeye:

Where in CT are you located? I'm in Milford.

Anyway, yes, there are lots of gripes. Some of them are nonsense, but a lot of them (at least the ones I've read) have some legitimacy. In my case, I tend to suffer the bugs (bad leaderheads notwithstanding) and, when I gripe, I gripe about poor implementation, such as spy spam, corporations, etc.

In this case, as I mentioned above, fixing the bugs is less of an issue than the way in which the last two patches have been handled. 3.03 is unusable and was a debacle. The manner in which this new patch is being handled -- "We have it, but you can't and, by the way, tell us if it's worth the wait when you can quantify neither the worth nor the wait" -- is a model for how things should not be done.

Perhaps it's a failing on my part, but I don't suffer business ineptitude well. And these last two patches have been handled ineptly, in one way or the other. This is business, not a frat house meeting and Firaxis' handling of these last two patches are been distinctly poor business.

I've been in entertainment business my entire career, which is now almost 30 years. Want to talk about resources and timelines? Try producing a $10MM Broadway show which is going open in a few days to a live audience and be reviewed by mainstream media sources all around the world. I've had reviews which were terrific and those which make any criticism directed to Firaxis in these forums seem like a walk in the park. And, you know what? Sometimes those criticisms were justified.

Producing any consumer product -- from computer games to Broadway shows to snow blowers -- is difficult, expensive, time-consuming and risky. There are things which can and things which cannot be avoided. A number of bugs in any computer software cannot be avoided. But the poor handling of these patches by Firaxis could have and should have been avoided. It's simply poor business and no amount of apologies and rationales for Firaxis' behavior can change that.

I've been a loyal (read: "obsessive") Civ player since CivII. Over the years (more than a decade now) I've tolerated -- and will continue to tolerate -- many issues with the game and done so gladly because it's given me so much enjoyment. I don't play any other games, so the argument that it's even worse with "Joe Schmoe's Whacky World of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Galactic Dragonslayers" holds no weight with me. I judge Civ and its purveyors simply on its and their own merits. Over the years I've very rarely spoken out (this is my 83rd post since joining this forum over 3 years ago). But when something is poorly handled, it's right to hold accountable those responsible. The more we engage in "La Di Da" apologizing, the worse the situation is likely to become.

Rant over (at least for now :lol: ).
 
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