Patch v3.13 change list

[KrikkitTwo]

I seriously hope you are joking. If that were the case I would suggest we see if some of the other modders can help Solver to implement all relevant changes from the list in his unofficial patch. Solver's efforts since BtS's release have put those of Firaxis to shame. Firaxis' current excuse is testing. Since testing for 3.03 didn't even last a few minutes, it isn't credible testing for 3.13 would last a few months.

Well, given the quality of 3.03, they might have decided to switch their strategy and actually test the patches, maybe even overtest them. Given that we haven't gotten an actual ETA, I'm saying we should expect the worst, late November seems as bad as it will possibly get. (assuming the companies don't suddenly collapse and the rights to Civ IV go into limbo, or that a major nuclear war occurs... I think that is actually the worst) That would be assuming that several of their vital bug fixes introduced new even more complex and annoying bugs, so the whole thing had to be sent back for redoing.

I was trying to strip away what he implied and look at what was said...
1. it is not being released yet
2. he gave us no release date
3. he gave us the list of changes

 

[Wodan]

I've said all I have to say. Responding with a repeat of what you all said earlier doesn't add anything to the discussion, and doesn't add anything new to be responded to.

I'll just try to be more concise in the point I was making:. The end result of all the hysteria you all are raising here is to make Firaxis more inhibited in giving us information, not less so.

2)Even if that is what was intended, even the most cursory glance at this thread would indicate that is not how it was interpreted (or indeed seems a reasonable interpretation of it).

3)A clarifying update should have been given - there is really no excuse for there being no comment by Friday evening.

4)Alexman has been on the forums recently (indeed today), so why is there no official comment?

Perhaps the answer to these questions is because of the reasoning I gave?

Personally I would much rather they feel comfortable sharing information with us, and that's why, as one customer to others, I disagree with the approach people are taking here. I'll leave it at that.

Wodan

 

[Arlborn]

I sincerely didn't see any ETA in his post, and in my mind(which is probably odd and weird) he meant more something like: "Something went wrong and we gotta delay it, but for now take a look at the change list".

I just don't think it was that bad structured. I prefer to call it mass hysteria.

 

[MrCynical]

Given that we haven't gotten an actual ETA, I'm saying we should expect the worst, late November seems as bad as it will possibly get.

Well Alexman has given us, if not a specific date, an "about 3 weeks" in late August, and this thread was consistent in some kind of (minor) delay from that. I don't see any reason to turn that into an "about 3 months", and with that kind of timescale modders could probably do a better job of an unofficial patch anyway.

I'll just try to be more concise in the point I was making. The end result of all the hysteria you all are raising here is to make Firaxis more inhibited in giving us information, not less so.

Personally I would much rather they feel comfortable sharing information with us, and that's why I disagree with your approach. I'll leave it at that.

Firaxis has, prior to the above linked post from Alexman never supplied us with any information, which is why many posters were pleased to see it. However, if Firaxis' communication consists merely of giving us an ETA, not even vaguely meeting it, and passing on without a word, that is just as useless as silence. Essentially we still don't have any communication with them.

I'm all for Firaxis communicating. Some of the information they communicate being even vaguely correct is kind of an essential component of that though.

 

[angeleyes]

Alexman shouldn't have said: "We are done with the patch", and he shouldn't have said "but unfortunately we will not be able to release it this week as we had hoped". Can we at least agree on this?

 

[tazpn314]

Wodan is correct they will probably never give partial updates one way or the other if this is the way its going to be. The types of posters on this forum are the reason many other game companies only host the forum and do not interact with the masses. It never ends well as one troll or another will berate them endlessly for things that the spokes person may not even be directly involved in.

I appreciated that Alexman posted the update so I know its coming. I was hoping it would be done by this weekend but I'll live somehow. I'd rather they spend time getting it ready for release and working correctly than posting hourly updates.

 

[Lobsang1979]

Well Alexman has given us, if not a specific date, an "about 3 weeks" in late August, and this thread was consistent in some kind of (minor) delay from that.

How can you quote this and not see the glaringly obvious logic to Alexman's post regarding the patch. Let's just follow the logic step by step here:

1) Alexman states in August an e.t.a. of about 3 weeks for the next patch, which we now know is likely to be 3.13.

2) About 3 weeks pass...

3) Alexman, conscious of his statement in August, follows up with a post stating that a patch with the listed changes, bug fixes, etc. termed build 3.13 has been compiled into an installable state (as inferred by his phrase "patch is now done"), but will not be released that week as proposed by his original August post. Does it not seem more logical to infer that his "this week as intended" comment is referencing the August post's intent, not some internal Firaxis intent in September that has been suppressed by an unfair/evil/profit-driven publisher's decision.

4) With this September post, Alexman has provided the community here with info regarding his August statement and thus prevented any "you said it would be 3 weeks" complaints. His post also provides a probable change list that will probably spark a thread response he hopes the developers can use to gauge how complete the community regards this patch to be.

5) The thread opens with excitement over the change list as it is, with some exceptions, pretty complete and what the community has been asking for.

6) Weekend passes, and people who have inferred from Alexman's Sept. post that the patch will be released week beginning 17th Sept. begin to voice their frustration at patch delay, as they are obviously entitled to on a forum.

7) Others, including myself, offer an alternative viewpoint, as also entitled, and the past 15 pages begin!

So, as no one here is going to reach some ultimate truth on the matter but merely keep going over the same old ground, does anyone believe it is illogical to assume that Alexman's intent was to justify his original August statement rather than imply imminent release of 3.13?

 

[The Foo]

Firaxis are [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]ing patchteases!! They should be ashamed for leading their faithful playerbase on like that and not providing any release! At least give me a hand-coded job!

 

[MrCynical]

@Lobsang1979: I've already run through the seven logical steps you've listed and agree with them. I however have already expressed the next few logical steps of this argument in my early posts.

8)Whether intended or not, the wording of the original post in this thread has been taken to mean that the patch was imminent - and this does not seem an unreasonable interpretation.

9)Alexman has been on the forums recently (indeed today), and it seems reasonable to suppose he would at least take a look at this thread given he started it.

10a)He, and hence Firaxis would therefore see what his statement was taken to mean, and so should correct it.

10b)An alternative line from this point is that he did intend the interpretation people have put on it; the patch should have been out last week. Some further delay has prevented this - Alexman should therefore still give us an update to that effect.

So, as no one here is going to reach some ultimate truth on the matter but merely keep going over the same old ground, does anyone believe it is illogical to assume that Alexman's intent was to justify his original August statement rather than imply imminent release of 3.13?

It is not logical to do that, and then not correct widespread misinterpretation of it, if that is indeed the case. 30 seconds from Alexman would provide this "ultimate truth" as to whether he meant; the patch will be out next week or; the patch will be out some time in the forseeable lifespan of planet earth.

I've already followed those logical steps, but if you keep going on they reach one conclusion - there should be an update as to what on earth is going on.

 

[Angst]

PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATCH!!!!!!!

...or else...

(Bugs)

 

[Supreme Shogun]

Are we there yet, Papa Smurf ?

 

[Lobsang1979]

It is not logical to do that, and then not correct widespread misinterpretation of it, if that is indeed the case. 30 seconds from Alexman would provide this "ultimate truth" as to whether he meant; the patch will be out next week or; the patch will be out some time in the forseeable lifespan of planet earth.

I've already followed those logical steps, but if you keep going on they reach one conclusion - there should be an update as to what on earth is going on.

I agree, a statement from Alexman would probably provide an explanation of what his original intent was. However, it seems to me extremely likely that in the current climate there would be those (and I do not necessarily mean yourself, it could even be me) who would find the explanation not to their satisfaction. As we have no way of knowing that Alexman's post would be 100% true and honest (gods know I would be tempted to fool myself if I had initiated this debate), this is what I mean by no "ultimate truth" being attainable.

My main problem with demanding an explanation, however, is that I do not intrinsically deserve nor expect anything of the sort. So I paid for a game, big deal. I did not enter into some sort of magical pact with Firaxis that binds them to providing me with everything I want, when I want it, how I want it. I can bad mouth them or praise them depending on my mood, but it is not my right to do so as a paying customer, merely my freedom to do so. Alexman has no responsibility as far as I am concerned to respond to this thread, even if he has been on forums today, other than if he feels that such a response would be courteous if that is his personality.

Basically, it is easy to direct feelings of frustration towards a focus such as Firaxis/2K/Alexman and it has become the norm to do as much. However, to deny that by inferring any meaning from their communications beyond the very literal has added to feelings of frustration is self delusion.

Honestly, I expected the patch to be released this week also. I was wrong, and am not going to blame that fact on anyone other than myself as I was never promised the patch this week. Thus I feel neither frustration nor a feeling of being teased.

Oh, and someone earlier stated that CIV1 had no errors or bugs. I would contend that it did, most likely, but we just never heard about them because forums such as this did not exist. Thus there was no reason to feel unfairly treated by Microprose, as we had no medium in which to create our own feelings of discontent.

Just my own thoughts, and I in no way see them as the ultimate truth. It would be a pretty dull world if everyone agreed with each other.

 

[JFLNYC]

I'll just try to be more concise in the point I was making:. The end result of all the hysteria you all are raising here is to make Firaxis more inhibited in giving us information, not less so.

You're guessing. And, if that's the case, what you're saying is that Firaxis, rather than taking a minute or two of their oh-so-precious time in order to clear up rampant confusion they caused, is now engaged in an infantile punishment paradigm: "If you don't behave, you'll get nothing!"

Alexman shouldn't have said: "We are done with the patch", and he shouldn't have said "but unfortunately we will not be able to release it this week as we had hoped". Can we at least agree on this?

If what you're saying is that they should either be clear in their communications or just keep their mouths shut, yes, we can probably agree on that.

Wodan is correct they will probably never give partial updates one way or the other if this is the way its going to be. The types of posters on this forum are the reason many other game companies only host the forum and do not interact with the masses. It never ends well as one troll or another will berate them endlessly for things that the spokes person may not even be directly involved in.

Poor little Buttercups they! What "types of posters" do you refer to? The "types" who buy their products and pay their salaries? We are not "masses." We are customers who are trying to interpret some Delphic post by a Firaxis employee. And, as I've pointed out before, what really irks is their soliciting our gratitude for their vaporware. The less they deign to "interact with the masses," the less those masses will be. Then, like "many other game companies," they'll be sold or go out of business.

I appreciated that Alexman posted the update so I know its coming. I was hoping it would be done by this weekend but I'll live somehow. I'd rather they spend time getting it ready for release and working correctly than posting hourly updates.

First of all, getting the patch ready and communicating with your customers are not mutually exclusive. And, did it ever occur to you that, by being so solicitous of their concerns, all you (and any other Firaxis apologist who reflexively voted that it was worth the wait) are doing is enabling their ineptitude and delays?

As MrCynical rightly points out, it would take all of 30 seconds for Firaxis to clear up the confusion they caused. The fact that they haven't is just an insult to their customers.

 

[Lobsang1979]

The fact that they haven't is just an insult to their customers.

... who choose to take it that way. I am not insulted so easily.

And as for paying their salaries, please, that argument does not float in a modern economy. The economic climate is vastly more complicated than a direct 'I buy product = proceeds go directly into pockets of people responsible for game' scenario.

Describing Alexman's post as 'Delphic' is a great analogy though, to my mind. Many who sought the guidance of Apollo at Delphi's Oracle drew great hope by inferring more from the pronouncements of his prophets than was literally spoken, only to have their hopes dashed when they realised that the supposed meaning was different to what they desired. The Civilopaedia explains this quite succinctly, although I wouldn't suggest trying it with patch 3.03 applied as it will likely crash

 

[toft]

I wonder how people would vote on "Worth the wait?", knowing what they know now

 

[JFLNYC]

I wonder how people would vote on "Worth the wait?", knowing what they know now

Let's find out.

 

[JFLNYC]

... who choose to take it that way. I am not insulted so easily.

Sorry. It's an insult under any circumstances.

And as for paying their salaries, please, that argument does not float in a modern economy. The economic climate is vastly more complicated than a direct 'I buy product = proceeds go directly into pockets of people responsible for game' scenario.

Really? What's their other source of revenue? It's that sort of "new" thinking which contributes to the high mortality rates among software companies. "Customers? We don't need no stinking customers!"

 

[Bhruic]

You're guessing. And, if that's the case, what you're saying is that Firaxis, rather than taking a minute or two of their oh-so-precious time in order to clear up rampant confusion they caused, is now engaged in an infantile punishment paradigm: "If you don't behave, you'll get nothing!"

"They" didn't cause any confusion. The only people getting confused are the people who insist on trying to read too much into the original statement - which is their problem, not Firaxis'. Try re-reading the original statement again (I'm changing the "we" to Firaxis, which is who "we" is, to make the point clear):

"Firaxis is done with the patch, but unfortunately Firaxis will not be able to release it this week as Firaxis had hoped."

If you can read that sentence and come to the conclusion that Firaxis has any control over when the patch is released, then I have to question your grasp over the English language. The release of the patch is 100% in the hands of the publisher.

We are customers who are trying to interpret some Delphic post by a Firaxis employee. And, as I've pointed out before, what really irks is their soliciting our gratitude for their vaporware. The less they deign to "interact with the masses," the less those masses will be. Then, like "many other game companies," they'll be sold or go out of business.

Well, let's just call that an extreme stretch, and completely unlikely, and leave it at that. Oh, except to point out - there is no need to "interpret" the post. It's very cut and dry. They hoped the patch would come out. It hasn't yet. End of story.

First of all, getting the patch ready and communicating with your customers are not mutually exclusive. And, did it ever occur to you that, by being so solicitous of their concerns, all you (and any other Firaxis apologist who reflexively voted that it was worth the wait) are doing is enabling their ineptitude and delays?

That's assuming there's an "ineptitude and delays" to begin with, which I don't think there is. Once again, you seem to be labouring under the misconception that you are "owed" a statement of some kind. You aren't. There is absolutely nothing in the EULA that states that Firaxis will communicate with you in any capacity. Therefore, they are under no obligation to do so. Any communication they do have with us is, therefore, above and beyond what they are required to do, and we should be grateful they spend the time to do it, instead of whining and complaining like children who don't get our wishes instantly gratified.

Bh

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Why doesn't everyone go out and buy Sam & Max: Season 1 like I did and play that while we wait for the patch?

 

[JFLNYC]

"They" didn't cause any confusion. The only people getting confused are the people who insist on trying to read too much into the original statement - which is their problem, not Firaxis'. Try re-reading the original statement again (I'm changing the "we" to Firaxis, which is who "we" is, to make the point clear):

"Firaxis is done with the patch, but unfortunately Firaxis will not be able to release it this week as Firaxis had hoped."

If you can read that sentence and come to the conclusion that Firaxis has any control over when the patch is released, then I have to question your grasp over the English language. The release of the patch is 100% in the hands of the publisher.

Sure they caused the confusion. Try re-reading (or reading) the last 24 pages. If you can read this thread and come to the conclusion that their statement didn't cause confusion, then I have to question your grasp of reality. (BTW, the correct grammar is grasp "of" the English language, not grasp "over" the English language.)

Well, let's just call that an extreme stretch, and completely unlikely, and leave it at that.

Have you ever owned a business? If you have, then you'd know that the worse you treat your customers, the less customers you'll have.

That's assuming there's an "ineptitude and delays" to begin with, which I don't think there is.

You think a patch (3.03) which is so bad people are warned not to install it isn't ineptitude? You think a statement which causes 24 pages (and growing) worth of questions isn't ineptitude? If you own a business, heaven help your shareholders. As for the delay, their statement admits as much. ". . . we will not be able to release it this week as we had hoped," means it's delayed by their own admission. Certainly that fact shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

Once again, you seem to be labouring under the misconception that you are "owed" a statement of some kind. You aren't. There is absolutely nothing in the EULA that states that Firaxis will communicate with you in any capacity. Therefore, they are under no obligation to do so.

Here you're partially right (although you must be confusing me with someone else, since I've never said Firaxis owed me a statement). They don't owe me any statement and I never expected one. Frankly, I wasn't even expecting a new patch, especially after they botched the last one. And, you want to know something? I don't owe them my business either. Our relationship is strictly voluntary on both sides. They only have to treat me well if they want me to remain a customer! Oh, and btw, the EULA is a contract of adhesion and much of it is probably unenforceable. Further, Firaxis (as with any seller) has certain obligations conferred upon them by law, which supersede any self-serving language they put into a EULA (e.g., implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose).

Any communication they do have with us is, therefore, above and beyond what they are required to do, and we should be grateful they spend the time to do it, instead of whining and complaining like children who don't get our wishes instantly gratified.

"Grateful?" Please! In terms of Firaxis' legal obligations and business imperatives, you're way out of your league, my friend.