Patch v3.13 change list

[Lobsang1979]

Sorry. It's an insult under any circumstances.



Really? What's their other source of revenue? It's that sort of "new" thinking which contributes to the high mortality rates among software companies. "Customers? We don't need no stinking customers!"

No, it's only an insult if one takes it that way. Speak for yourself please, not for others. Saying 'sorry' first does not change my viewpoint, nor validate yours as the only point of view.

As for their revenue, they are not receiving continuous revenue per month from yourself. They received revenue from your initial purchase, which would have covered company running costs, after which the profits would have been distributed amongst shareholders or have been invested so as to provide continual income. This is not "new thinking", but merely the business practice of companies that are not run from a garage or basement.

Yes, a company would not survive without its customers. You bought BTS on day of release, pre-order, according to an earlier thread. I noted your enthusiasm at receiving the product within that thread. Congratulations, you have added revenue to the companies involved in creating BTS. You then complain about the state of the product you have bought after parting with your money, which I agree gives you a moral justification to complain about the quality. However, having already parted with money on day of release, you have no standing to use your financing of the companies as a basis of complaint. You have in fact contributed to the trend of games companies releasing bugged software by offering the publishers no financial chastisement regarding the now widespread practice of releasing bugged software.

As for high mortality rates amongst software companies, I can only think of one that produced seriously good games but were failed by publishers in recent memory: Troika (i.e. Vampire: Bloodlines). I do remember the late 80s, early 90s, when games companies went bust more frequently because of discerning customers like myself who read independent reviews before purchasing. These days, so long as people keep buying products on day of release, publishers are there to keep them afloat and fund new projects.

 

[Bhruic]

Sure they caused the confusion. Try re-reading (or reading) the last 24 pages. If you can read this thread and come to the conclusion that their statement didn't cause confusion, then I have to question your grasp of reality.

Then question away. I have read the 24 pages. The only confusion I've seen is from people who have grossly misunderstood the original post. That, as I've said repeatedly, is not a problem with the original post, it's a problem with people's reading comprehension.

Have you ever owned a business? If you have, then you'd know that the worse you treat your customers, the less customers you'll have.

Which has nothing to do with what you originally postulated. But nice attempt to change your point after the fact.

You think a statement which causes 24 pages (and growing) worth of questions isn't ineptitude? If you own a business, heaven help your shareholders. As for the delay, their statement admits as much. ". . . we will not be able to release it this week as we had hoped," means it's delayed by their own admission. Certainly that fact shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

Oh, please. Try dealing with reality instead of making it up as you go. This thread is a far cry from "24 pages worth of questions". In fact, the first dozen or so pages were all comments about the patch itself. It wasn't until a few impatient complainers showed up that this thread derailed sharply. And you'll note that the number of complainers is pretty limited, they are just quite vocal.

Frankly, I wasn't even expecting a new patch, especially after they botched the last one. And, you want to know something? I don't owe them my business either. Our relationship is strictly voluntary on both sides. They only have to treat me well if they want me to remain a customer!

This sort of internet "tough guy" act is almost comical. Yeah, I'm sure if a Civ V comes out at some point, you're going to stick to your guns and not buy it because they didn't make a forum post for BTS.

Oh, and btw, the EULA is a contract of adhesion and much of it is probably unenforceable. Further, Firaxis (as with any seller) has certain obligations conferred upon them by law, which supersede any self-serving language they put into a EULA (e.g., implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose).

Uh, so what? This has absolutely nothing to do with anything we're talking about.

"Grateful?" Please! In terms of Firaxis' legal obligations and business imperatives, you're way out of your league, my friend.

I'm not your "friend". And, again, your "tough guy", "I know so much more than you" act is pointless. And irrelevant. Unless you're going to point me to where your extensive "legal obligations and business imperatives" knowledge shows they are required to communicate details of the patch to you. Which, of course, you can't. So quit trying to sidetrack the discussion.

Bh

 

[ripple01]

pwned.....

 

[JFLNYC]

No, it's only an insult if one takes it that way. Speak for yourself please, not for others. Saying 'sorry' first does not change my viewpoint, nor validate yours as the only point of view.

If I were to call you obtuse (not that I would), but you weren't insulted, it would still be an insult.

As for their revenue, they are not receiving continuous revenue per month from yourself. They received revenue from your initial purchase, which would have covered company running costs, after which the profits would have been distributed amongst shareholders or have been invested so as to provide continual income. This is not "new thinking", but merely the business practice of companies that are not run from a garage or basement.

Wow! That's the long way around to try to say that customers don't fund Firaxis' revenues. Long way, to be sure. Effective? Not so much.

Yes, a company would not survive without its customers. You bought BTS on day of release, pre-order, according to an earlier thread. I noted your enthusiasm at receiving the product within that thread. Congratulations, you have added revenue to the companies involved in creating BTS. You then complain about the state of the product you have bought after parting with your money, which I agree gives you a moral justification to complain about the quality. However, having already parted with money on day of release, you have no standing to use your financing of the companies as a basis of complaint. You have in fact contributed to the trend of games companies releasing bugged software by offering the publishers no financial chastisement regarding the now widespread practice of releasing bugged software.

Glad to see you're doing your homework by looking up my past posts (although it's also kind of creepy). You're right. I was enthusiastic. But you're mistaken about my justification. When I bought their product, Firaxis and I entered into a legal contract. Therefore, I very much have legal standing both to complain and, were i to choose to do so, to sue Firaxis. If I did sue them I might lose on the substance of my complaint. But, trust me, the complaint would not be dismissed for lack of standing simply because I parted with my money on the day of release. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why you're having trouble with you car, washing machine and phone. Perhaps you mistakenly believe you have no legal recourse since you've already paid!

Let me be very clear. I'll say again what I've said before (which you must know having perused my earlier posts): I expected bugs. The bugs have been somewhat annoying, but not enough to take away from my many hours of enjoyment of the game. What "bugs" me is the ineptitude of Firaxis in executing and delivering its patches. I'll admit. I expect better of them. But I don't expect them: (1) to release a bug-free product; or (2) to communicate with me. But if they're going to go to the trouble of releasing patches and communicating with me, I expect them to do so in a moderately effective way. They haven't.

 

[DemonMaster]

If the patch is done and ready, but it they can't release it. Doesn't that mean that the patch isn't ready, because if it is ready and they won't release it, wouldn't that be quite arrogant (I could have used other words and stronger words here).
or
if it isn't ready, but they annonce it as such. I can't really explain why they would do that other than it was a mistake.

I mean that they didn't need to tell us that they were working on a patch, hey, I think we all could figure out that even without an annoncement (it's civ, they usually release alot of patches).

The problem with this is that it is not so funny to begin a game that you never know if you can finish. Yes now someone say, that you don't have to patch until you have finished. Oh yeah, you have a patch that fixes 50+ bugs or so but I wait. It feels like "Catch 22" doesn't it.

 

[Adam7Eight]

Some of us in this thread need to turn off the monitor, get up from the desk, and go outside for a little while.

 

[Bhruic]

If the patch is done and ready, but it they can't release it. Doesn't that mean that the patch isn't ready, because if it is ready and they won't release it, wouldn't that be quite arrogant (I could have used other words and stronger words here).

Ok, maybe part of the problem is that people just aren't familiar with how patches work.

The developer (in this case Firaxis) works on the patch. Once they are "finished" with it, they deliver it to the publisher (in this case Take Two). The publisher then puts it through a QA process. At this point, one of two things can happen. The publisher can decide that the patch is fine, in which case the publisher decides to release it to the public, or they can decide that there are still issues with it, and request that the developer do more work on it.

In either case, it is the publisher that is making the call, not the developer. So when Firaxis says that the patch is "done", what they mean is that they have finished it on their end, and delivered it to Take Two. Take Two has, obviously, yet to make the decision to release it. But that is out of Firaxis' hands.

Bh

 

[Duuk]

Firaxis is the new Activision.

 

[Lobsang1979]

If I were to call you obtuse (not that I would), but you weren't insulted, it would still be an insult.

You are correct, it would be an insult (like so many of your sardonic comments) and it is likely I personally would not be insulted as I have no reason to be. It is a forum, and people have many differing views.

However, the above comment also highlights the method of so many of your arguments. To use the above example:

1) I state my viewpoint that Firaxis did not directly insult us by posting the patch details. They did not, for example, call us obtuse. They provided information.

2) You take my statement, create a sardonic comment like the above out of it and throw it back while in no way referring to the original substance of my comment. Is it not the equivalent of the playground "Yeah, well you're stupid!" repost? An added smiley does not in fact make it any less transparent.

*Note that the above pattern is also applied to other forum posters who question your posts*

As always, my post is not to question the worthiness of your own viewpoints or frustrations. They are your own, and I respect them while not agreeing with all of them. I respect them by arguing alternate viewpoints without obvious emotion, and try to avoid mocking your statements reflexively.

I do question your debating style at times, however, as I find it unsatisfying to attempt a reasoned debate in the midst of such sarcasm and mockery. And, yes, I know that this forum does not exist for my personal satisfaction; I am just explaining why I reply to some of your comments.

That is all. Roll on patch 3.13. I will be the first to laugh if it breaks the game further

 

[jkp1187]

Wow. Just...wow.

[Goes back to Apolyton.]

 

[Bushface]

If only Alexman had said something on the lines of "here is a change list for a new patch which will soon be released" then this vast and rambling thread would, with luck, have been reduced to a few discussions of the effects of the changes.

 

[Psyringe]

Some of us in this thread need to turn off the monitor, get up from the desk, and go outside for a little while.

Signed. Twice.

I don't really understand the anger expressed in this thread. I find the game very enjoyable as it is. I just finished the best Civ game I ever had (modded super-huge map with 34 civs on Marathon), and I played *lots* of games in all iterations of the Civ franchise. And I'll start the next one in a minute. I simply don't care when 3.13 gets released ... when it's there, I'll install it to make an already great product even better. As long as it's *not* there, I'll simply play and enjoy the game without it.

 

[Psyringe]

If only Alexman had said something on the lines of "here is a change list for a new patch which will soon be released" then this vast and rambling thread would, with luck, have been reduced to a few discussions of the effects of the changes.

Nah, not really possible. Game forums don't work this way.

People want a patch and don't have it yet. That's causing frustration. Some people direct this frustration at Firaxis or Alexman. This procedure is totally independent of what Alexman actually does or says. He has no chance to prevent that, he can only choose whether he's being yelled at for not communicating, or for communicating too little, or for communicating too much, etc. Probably the best he can do is spend some quality time with his family and friends until 3.13 gets released and new bug reports roll in.

 

[Ethric]

Then question away. I have read the 24 pages. The only confusion I've seen is from people who have grossly misunderstood the original post. That, as I've said repeatedly, is not a problem with the original post, it's a problem with people's reading comprehension.

Do not ty to ridicule those of us who read the OP within a context as opposed to it's strict wording and nothing more, as you advocate. Reading comprehension and text interpretation isn't as easy as that. Both ways are valid.

Hey, this is how religions schism, isn't it The internet is a fun place.

 

[Lobsang1979]

Hey, this is how religions schism, isn't it The internet is a fun place.

If I see a poster named Isabella joining the thread, I'm leaving before the fireworks start...

 

[yatta77]

Civ IV before patch 1.52 was to me too buggy to be fun; then it becomes the best vidoegame ever. Warlords before patch 2.08 was too buggy to be fun; then it becomes the best video game ever. Right now (and this is only my own opinion) BtS is too buggy to be fun, I hope the next patch will make it the best video game ever again (I like the changes listed).

I played 3 full games the first week I had BtS (was the week the game was comercialized), then I stopped playing it waiting for a solid patch, because I had the feeling of an incomplete product (Solver made an excellent work with his very welcome unofficial patch; I tryed it, but it was a patch about specific major bug, not a complete balancing gameplay patch, so I decided to wait for the official patch anyway).

I don't know if I'm saying now something stupid, but probably the complexity of the game requires some customer testing and feedback (which is a huge quantity of testers providing informations based on hours of playing) to be balanced and fixed correctly. I don't know if the game could be released with less bugs in the beginning (some are really evident since the first game you play), if a solid official patch could be released earlier, if a date for release should be comunicated, or if it is natural that things goes the way are going. I just accept it, and wait hoping for a good patch which fixes the majority of things not working right now. Quit playing Civ for a while it is not a frustration for me. If the patch is going to be done well, it is worth the wait.

 

[Backpack]

Cross posting and Cross-Poly-nating.

This showed up today...Courtesy of Alexman....

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5053707#post5053707

"The save format will be different, but it will be backwards compatible. That means you will be able to load v302 saves from v313, but you will not be able to load v313 saves from v302.

It should be out early next week. We had to go back and fix a couple of new bugs we introduced."

Just FYI.

 

[fizsh]

Cross posting and Cross-Poly-nating.

This showed up today...Courtesy of Alexman....

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5053707#post5053707

"The save format will be different, but it will be backwards compatible. That means you will be able to load v302 saves from v313, but you will not be able to load v313 saves from v302.

It should be out early next week. We had to go back and fix a couple of new bugs we introduced."

Just FYI.

I've been reading this thread for several days now, and I just felt I would stick my opinion in here. First off, BtS was the first computer game I ever bought the day of release, with the exception of Strat-o-Matic Baseball every year, but those are so simple they have very minor bugs if any at all. I found the game to be quite enjoyable, and feel fortunate to not have experienced most of the bugs listed. Thanks to these forums, I admit, I never installed 3.03. When I saw that the new patch was coming out soon, I thought good. I didn't stop playing, and indeed won't update the game until I finish my current game. It takes me a week or two to complete a game.

I never read into the original post that the patch was imminent, just that they couldn't release it yet. However, I make this observation. On this site, this thread is long, partly due to more readers I imagine, but I think also due to the original post. On the Apolyton site linked in the quoted post, there is very little complaining about the patch taking too long as it was not Alexman who made the original post. One post I think mentioned that they thought it would be out Friday. From this, I conclude that the original post did cause people to infer that it would be out sooner than what has occurred. As I said, I did not read it that way, but it seems to me that the post did cause the confusion. Again, just my observations.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Lol people, stop focusing on the first 42 words of Alexman's post and start focusing on the 3315 words that come after it.

 

[Hawaiian]

Lol people, stop focusing on the first 42 words of Alexman's post and start focusing on the 3315 words that come after it.

AMEN!! Speaking of which, I'm interested in the paratroopers getting 25% evasion chance.

I'd like to hear how people have been using them. They can only paradrop from cities, right? And also...how does interception currently work? Planes, mech inf, aa, can shoot them down? Or just wound them before they land?