Patch v3.13 change list

Worth the wait?


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guys a list of solvers events?Is it too much to ask? Are they already listed somewhere?
 
I haven't registered with "Apolyton Civilization Site Forums" at apolyton.net/forums, but why is the v3.13 change list there incomplete?

I only scanned it but it is missing the changes for the various official mods. This came to my attention because I'm interested in the fixed Next War epic. I wonder if many people there that don't visit here even know of these missing items in their list.
 
Hi

Yeah the new diplomatic "fix" bugs me a lot too. And for the same reason it bugs others. It's not about winning the game. If you are at a point where you have such a dominant civ that you could vote yourself as diplomatic leader winning isn't the question. The question becomes whether or not you want to decide to continue on to a different type of victory or if you think it is becoming tedious just take your diplo win and move on to new game.

This really is a big issue for me personally just because I usually have domination win turned off. If I am not going for a peaceful win then I want conquest and donination is annoying when it forces you to destroy city after city just to avoid getting domination before you complete your conquests. And witht he way space victory is now it is just like 30 turns of shift turn once you build it. Un victory was about the only quick way to end a game thats a foregone conclusion and you have decided you want to move on.

There are just so many thinsg wrong with doing it this way. It makes the end game more tedious unless you *live* to play for domination or conquest or micromanage diplomacy. And I do mean micro manage. I usually only do "enuff" diplomacy to keep civs off my back until I am ready to go to war with em so if I can keep em at arms length with powergraph I would rather do that. I dont find getting everyone pleased with me worth it because it is annoying keeping track of likes who so I dont trade with someones enemy or something and lots of times it isnt even helpful on diplo victiory. I have had TONS of games where people who were at pleased or friendly STILL wouldnt vote for me. It seems like the only time most will vote for you is if their votes wouldnt make a diff one way or another like it just a last second suck up or something.

I also dont like it because if it is vassals count as team then it just one more reson NOT to get vassals. I dont know why but whoever in charge of game seems to want two thing VERY badly. 1) FORCE people who play the game to use vassals mainly by making overseas citties SO crippling that if you DONt use vassals and colonies the game will be ruined for you. 2) Even though your forced to use em actually HAVING vassals is pretty much useless unless you want a quicker domination win. ANd this diplomatic fix is just one more way having vassals is actually worse than better.

Another reason I dont like this fix is yeah it seems obvious this fix is for AP to stop people form sending a missionary to one city per civ then quickly voting before they can spread it within their civs. But in fixing that part they affected another aspect of game that nobody was complaining about in VERY big way. They SHOULD have worked out solution to AP problem without that solution impacting other areas of the game that noone was complaining about.

Also I dont like it because yeah AP victory you have shot to "sneak" a win by spamming one minority religion to all your cities and making it your state religion and then just putting that one religion in one city per civ and getting a vote and since that vote based on % of believers in that religion and that people who have the ap as state religion will get double votes which would be unlikely that other civs who probably already have another bigger religion as state religion wont switch to religion of just one city. SO that means a little low pop empire could manipulate to voting themselves AP leader and "stealing" a victory even if they were smallest empire in game.

But UN diplo victory is WHOLE different story if you have empire big enough that you can vote yourself leader then you pretty much have the game won and taking away the UN victory option is just punishing you for being successful and that just doesnt seem right in general and for me personally unfun since it will just force more tedium to end game because of how I like to play.

So this little fix is probably going to take AWAY a lot of the fun for me since it means when I get to point where I might just say ok I seen enough just get diplo and move on so I can see my score. I will end up just quitting rather than dragging game out for one of the other ways to win. And I have a feeling that could get very old very fast.

Finally I dont like this fix because it doesnt even seem to solve the MAIN complaint about AP victory. You have a huge empire maybe only a couple of civs left but your religons are different. They send one missionary into your huge empire or you capture one city that has that religon and then AP vote comes up all the other minor civs vote to a leader and that one littel city doesnt give you enough votes to have any effect on the elcetion it just makes you affected by the results and boom you just lost.

This can still happen with the new changes so it really doesnt even fix what lots of people didnt like about AP and instead just messes up UN victory for people if they are too successful in the late game.

Kaytie
 
I haven't registered with "Apolyton Civilization Site Forums" at apolyton.net/forums, but why is the v3.13 change list there incomplete?

I suspect it's a cut and paste from the list in this thread and the poster didn't bother to copy those parts.
 
KaytieKat: I agree with a LOT of what you wrote. IMHO, diplomacy, espionage, corporations and religions are all interesting concepts, but implemented in a mediocre manner, at best, and are downright confusing and counterproductive, at worst.

It is very, very frustrating to try to use diplomacy wisely, have a number of "friendlies" and "pleased," only to find their attitude only affects their willingness to trade, not their loyalty in elections. Worse yet, your friends seem to go out of their way to request things you cannot always agree to just to get some negative diplomatic points. Further, the game does not take into account some good things you do for your friends. For example, if they request you stop trading or go to war with someone and you decline, you get a negative hit. Conversely, if someone asks you to stop trading or go to war with that same friend and you refuse the request, you get no credit for it. Also, there are many times when I'm happy to join a friend in a war, but I just need a turn or two to ready myself. Perhaps the negative hit should be erased if you go to war within 3 - 5 turns. I know you get positive points if you join in later, but they disappear once the war stops, while the negative hit lasts forever. It just seems the designers thought up as many ways as possible to negatively affect diplomatic relations, without balancing out all the positive ways.

Don't get me started on Espionage. Just for an example, how many times in human history has the water supply of a city been poisoned? Yet it happens continually in BtS. And the Spy Spam is just ridiculous. How about limiting the number of spies you can have in the field?

Corporations? It's ridiculous that you have to avoid spreading them within your own civilization. Further, since opponents spread them like crazy, it's pointless to build more than one or two, at the most, because of the cost of supplanting another corporation.

Religion is implemented better, but its importance is still too dominant, especially in later stages of the game. Also, in every single game I play, my next-door neighbor always adopts my religion very early on (without my spreading it), just to make sure I get negative points if I attack him/her. Yet, when he/she attacks me, none of my religious colleagues ever seem to be outraged enough to join me in the war.

Anyway, I'm sorry I turned this into a rant. But everyone having a wet dream about this patch before they've even tried it and when so many core concepts are still screwed up, IMHO just encourages/enables Firaxis not to do the fundamental changes necessary.
 
Fixed bug in Foreign advisor tech panel

I doubt that this refers to the same issue but I have noticed one thing about the tech panel. I always play with No Tech Brokering on and if you obtain a tech through trade, then you can no longer see who else has it or who is researching it. Perhaps there should be a "Wants but can't trade" column for techs that the HUMAN player has but cannot trade, analogous to the the "Can't trade" column that does the same thing for the AI?
 
I wrote up a guide to modern naval combat using BTS.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=243068

Even with the change to the Attack Sub, it's still true. Additional power to the AS is to just make it easier to nail other subs.

For example, your point about Stealth Destroyers are off-base



Stealth Destroyers are ideal for cleaning up because the #1 drawback for naval battles is that you use up MP's to attack and then a cruise missle counter-attack means your injured units are dead meat. Using Attack-configured SD's means you can wipe up the remnants and leave nothing for the enemy to assault unless the enemy also has lots of SD's.

Trying to counter every unit with itself is just a war of attrition with no strategy. Instead, look at the fact that the Subs have no air-defenses. Your goal is to detect the attack sub and direct air strikes against them. Then you can finish them with Stealth Destroyers which have comparable attack power but more mobility. Withdrawl is meaningless when the subs are being attacked.

On top of that, I don't expect the AI to use a lot of attack subs because they tend to prefer the normal subs due to the penchant for missiles and tactical nukes.


Land combat is better than sea combat because.

It promotes a combined arms approach, 1 unit type armies can be easily countered
The unit upgrades/promotions model enhances this further, because units can be upgraded with promotions to counter other specific units
Terrain plays a bigger role (not much you can do about this one at sea, as terrain type will never match land for variety)

A knight can be countered > pikemen > macemen > crossbowmen, and it goes on, the model is futher enhanced by the promotions system, that is also partly counter based, and finally planes/airships to this mix later on means there are a lot of variables an combat can go one way or the other based on a host of differant factors, which are unit types engaged, terrain, promotions chosen, available air power

Now look at naval combat

Does not promote a combined arms approach
Unit upgrades are all generic, more str, more FS, no enhancements to a units combat ability vs other units
Terrain inherantly offers less options for strategic postioning

The last point there's not much you can do about it but points 1 an 2 there are, i realise planes etc play a role, but planes should enhance the tactical model further not be the only way to break deadlocks, the sailing ship era is beautifully done

Privateers have special combat functions, but the lowest str
Frigates counters privateers
Ships of the line counter Frigates but are a little slower
Ironclads stomp the lot but are quite slow and coastline only

Simple system, encourages variety
10 ironclads might have the most muscle but at the huge expense of mobility
10 Ships of the line might be a good halfway house, but there slower speed means privateers with there 2 site radius will probably see you comming an outrun you
10 Frigates are pretty hard, but will be stomped if they run into a group of the above 2 an don't have enough moves to get the distance away needed
10 privateers are vurable to fast moving frigates

10 battleships won't be neutralised by anything bar another 10 battleships/MC, there's no counter, and thats were it's broken, outside things like airstikes etc have to break the deadlock, it makes for sameyness since with naval ultimately the best unit combo's are a sub or 2 for spotting a SD or 2 for spotting a loads of BS/MC to kill everything, thats why it's important to have a hard counter for every unit

SD may do a great clean up job like you say but only as long as i dont have them, so i cant counter you when i dont have them, an when i do they loose there advantage of invisability which is the reason you got them, so there two powerful when your the only one to have them an have no role when i do have them too, so they counter themselves
 
Any new information about the release date of the patch??..
 
WHen is the patch going to come out?
 
PATCH TODAY?

paaaaaaaaatch....PAAAAAAAATCH!
 
so state property still collects HQ income from overseas branches? could that be nerfed to half income?
 
I doubt that this refers to the same issue but I have noticed one thing about the tech panel. I always play with No Tech Brokering on and if you obtain a tech through trade, then you can no longer see who else has it or who is researching it. Perhaps there should be a "Wants but can't trade" column for techs that the HUMAN player has but cannot trade, analogous to the the "Can't trade" column that does the same thing for the AI?

That's (mostly) intentional. The tech panel is designed to not give you any information that isn't available by going to each leader. If you have no tech brokering on, and go to a leader, you will not be given the option of trading the tech, so you cannot identify whether they have the tech or not.

The panel could be expanded to track historical information, so if you had the option to get Music from a civ the panel always remembers that the civ has researched Music, but that gets a lot more complicated.
 
That's (mostly) intentional. The tech panel is designed to not give you any information that isn't available by going to each leader. If you have no tech brokering on, and go to a leader, you will not be given the option of trading the tech, so you cannot identify whether they have the tech or not..

Actually, it already does give you that information. That tech appears in the "Can't trade" column on the tech panel, but does not appear (naturally) if you talk to the leader through diplomacy.

What I was saying is that it would be nice if one could also see what techs they cannot trade to the AI because the techs were obtained through trading.

Example: (all of this is with No Tech Brokering on)

Case 1: My neighbor Mansa has Music but he got it from another AI so cannot trade it to me. I don't see the tech on the diplomacy screen but when I go to the tech panel I see it's listed under "Can't Trade". So I know he has it. --> This is how it already works

Case 2: I have Music but I got it from another AI. I want to see who else has Music because I want to know who else might be building the Sistine Chapel. But I don't see Music listed anywhere - not in the diplomacy screen or the tech trading panel. In this case it would be nice to have a column of techs that I have but cannot trade.
 
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