PBEM: Popa Cornitza spoiler thread

[Niklas]

I was a bit surprised to see this actually. But yeah, I've pretty much maximized my production at this point, with a capitol working 5 tiles all with 2f 2s 2c, and a second town working an irrigated and roaded FP wheat. Gratifying to see after my dysmal start.

 

[peter grimes]

Yes, that was a bummer of a start, indeed.

If I recall, the f11 stats will call you 1st, even if you are tied with someone. Still, at least you're at the top of the pack in production, if not land

 

[Niklas]

Correct, I can't know if I'm alone on the top or tied. Well, actually I can if I fiddle around with the numbers a bit to see if having 1 less drops me back a spot or three, but I didn't bother at this point. Doesn't really matter, what matters is I didn't expect to be doing this well. The extra settler sure helped.

Regarding land area, I don't care one bit. I'm deliberately settling a very close pattern, I want maximal production and commerce in the early game. Land area is the least important statistic to look at IMO.

 

[peter grimes]

Less important than Life Expectancy or Pollution?

 

[Niklas]

Touchee! I don't even look at those at all, so I didn't consider their statistics even. Just silly numbers.

The important stats IMO are MFG, Productivity, GNP and Family Size. A pity that the last doesn't give fractions. Next comes Population, Military Service, Literacy and Land Area. Annual Income is useless since it depends on how you spend your money, GNP is a better judge of your economy. Approval rating would only be important if you could see if others went below 50%, but since you can't it's also useless, along with Life Expectancy, Pollution and Disease.

 

[Niklas]

Couldn't help myself so I started fiddling.

Turn 50 demographics:

Productivity:
1. 47
2. 46
3. 41
4. 39
5. 36
6. 30
7. 27

MFG:
1. 15
1. 15 (tied)
3. 14
4. 13
5. 11
5. 11
7. 8

GNP:
1. 24
2. 23
3. 21
4. 20
5. 19
6. 16
7. 14

Much larger spread than I thought. Of course it's harder to expand if you're not agricultural, and an extra settler helps a lot...

 

[peter grimes]

That's interesting!

I'd hate to be that 14gnp person

 

[Niklas]

Doing those numbers before piqued my interest, so I did some more digging. Turns out the Family Size attribute (i.e. # excess food / (# towns * 2)) actually registers more precise values even if only integers are displayed, with a minimum of 1 at that. I have 8 excess food for my 3 towns giving me a value of 1.33 which is displayed as 1, placing me in 1st. But if I drop the value to 6, i.e. 1.0, I'm still displayed as 1 but drop to 3rd place. Nothing will drop me further, not even running negative food.

From this I draw two conclusions. First of all the obvious, only two other nations have more than 2 excess food on average across their towns. Second, regarding the numbers themselves, the inner numbers are more finegrained than integers, but I have no idea at what scale. If I maximize all my towns for food I make 12, enough to put the displayed value to 2 children, still in 1st of course. But I have no way of knowing how much excess food the other two who are above 1 are making. It could even be so coarse (and stupid) that all inner values exceeding 1 are rounded up to two, but the displayed values are floored. I'll keep an eye on the development here to see if I can find out more about how the numbering works.

Here are the latest numbers as of turn 52, not that they are that interesting this close to the last ones. One of my towns just grew, which accounts for the increase in my numbers.

[U]Prod	MFG	GNP	F.Size[/U]
[B]51	18	27	 >1.0[/B]
48	16	24	 >1.0
42	16	22	 >1.0
40	13	21	<=1.0
38	12	21	<=1.0
36	12	20	<=1.0
30	 9	16	<=1.0

 

[peter grimes]

What a curious way to consider the values - I wonder why the game does it that way?

 

[Niklas]

Here follows an interesting conversation, gathered over the millennia in this world. I figured I should put it up here for the rest of you to enjoy as well.

Hail to the fine people of Qart-Haddasht who have sent an emissary to our lands. Will you agree to a formal peace treaty, to strengthen the bonds between our two nations?

Best regards,
High Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

Best Greetings from The High Council of Elders

As ruler and formal representitive i agree with a formal peace contract established for a set number of turns and may i also add the desire of the carthaginian people in the exchange of technologies, luxury and other map informations?

In the hope of good prosperity and years of peace for both our nations i wait for you(rs) proposal(s),
Hasdrubal Barca of the Barca Regent Family.

Best greetings to the Council of Elders from the High Pope - I will sacrifice a maiden in each of your many names!

> As ruler and formal representitive i agree with a formal peace contract
> established for a set number of turns and may i also add the desire of the
> carthaginian people in the exchange of technologies, luxury and other map
> informations?

I envision that peace will reign between our nations for thousands of years (how about to turn 80, 1000 BC, for starters?).

The lands of the Corny people is known for its delicate spices, and I would gladly trade these to whoever completes a trade route to my grand nation, and would of course gladly send my slaves to help in the endeavour.

As for technologies, we are always glad to learn more. I believe you have a system to make notes (Alphabet) that could come in handy. We could teach you how to make sculptures of clay (Pottery) and to use pointy sticks from a distance (Warrior Code). Would this perhaps suit your fancy?

It would also be nice to coordinate research paths. My stargazers don't need to gaze at the same stars as your stargazers after all. May I ask what knowledge you are currently searching for, and what your plans are after that?

These are the words of the High Pope, may I reign in eternity:
* Guaranteed peace at least until turn 80 (1000 BC)
* Your Alphabet (cost 150) for our Warrior Code (90) and Pottery (60)

What says the Council of Elders?

Your proposal as agreed to The Council of Elders and the following conclusions were reached:
- Agree on a formal peace treaty till the year 1000BC - turn 80;
- Agree on the exchange of techs, however our nation already have discovered Pottery, thus i only need Warrior Code, what do you think of Warrior Code (90) + 60 gold pieces (Pottery cost) + 15 gold pieces (cost of opening a door to phill slinghot) = WC+70gp?
- Our scholars are currently trying to uncover the mysteries of religion (Cer. Burial), what are the noble people of The High Pope researching we enquire?

In the hope of a permanent peace and open channel of comunication with the noble northern people i wish you a long reign,

Hasdrubal Barca,
Ruler and Formal Representive of Kart-Hadasth High Council

> - Agree on a formal peace treaty till the year 1000BC - turn 80;

Hooray for peace!

> - Agree on the exchange of techs, however our nation already have discovered
> Pottery, thus i only need Warrior Code, what do you think of Warrior Code
> (90) + 60 gold pieces (Pottery cost) + 15 gold pieces (cost of opening a
> door to phill slinghot) = WC+70gp?

Nay, this I cannot agree to. We believe many a nation in this world knows these secrets of mr Al Phabet, and to think we would have even an inkling of a chance to be the first to know the virtues of Philililosphy is clearly rubbish. Also, to gather even the worth of 60 gold pieces (whatever those are) I would need to ask my stargazers to start counting gold instead, which would set us back in the ways of the world. It would not benefit your people either if we did so, since it would take from you the chance to trade for what we would have researched next.

> - Our scholars are currently trying to uncover the mysteries of religion
> (Cer. Burial), what are the noble people of The High Pope researching we
> enquire?

My stargazers are currently occupied trying to make things roll (TW). So far they've tried tying big boulders to a log, but it would not move. But the log itself could be rolled just fine, so I think they may be on to something.

So let me then propose this more long-term deal, which would clearly benefit us both since we will have peace for millenia to come:
- We receive Alphabet (150) and Ceremonial Burial (60) when you are done with it, and in return you receive Warrior Code (90) and The Wheel (120). It all adds up nicely, how that happened I do not know since we have not yet learnt how to add things together, but it looks nice anyway.

However, it should be obvious that you will reach CB some time before my people rearch TW (~15 turns estimate). If you would agree to trade Alphabet for Warrior Code + 10 gold now, we would turn it around to a trade CB + 10 gold for TW when we are done researching it.

What say you?

Best regards,
High Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

The High Council of Elders had to take the matter into discussion all day and night , after much debate and some harsh discussion (rumors state that knifes and swords hidden beneath the old man´s robes where made visible and some new scars appeared in some of the members), and the coming of dawn they finnally reached a conclusion:

- Celebrations over the peace treaty and many whishes for a long lasting one;
- Agreed on the tech trade of Alphabet for Warrior Code as long as The High Pope doens´t trade it to any other nation for 15 turns counting from next turn, no money involved is needed;
- Agreed on sending you Ceremonial Burial on 8 turns (Turn 23) without money involved in the obligation of sending The Wheel in turn 30 or less (which i´m quite confident that it will be sooner).
- The High Council also whises to add that our objective is an establishement of trust and cooperation due to the proximity of our two capitals and the hope of avoiding waste of time and resources in feable conflicts and petty skemes.

Note: We called it The Wheel because some of our children already use some bolders to play with it, its in fact so popular, that a local shopkeeper named Zerbel Afzim The Wheel decided to baptize the toy with its surmane

Best Regards from Qart-Hadasth

We agree. We send you Warrior Code with this save. Let the petty vengeful gods be dismayed when they realize the strength of our cooperation!

High Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

In representation of the High Council of Elders,

Ceremonial Burial is under way and accepted, our scholars have decided to go with Bronze Working afterall, please send The Wheel in the turn researched as agreed.

Best Regards,
Hasdrubal Barca, Ruler of Qart-Hadasth

I thank you greatly for this gift, I have now seen the virtues of religion for keeping the masses in check. Now I have something I can claim to sacrifice to. Very handy indeed. I will of course send the knowledge of The Weevil to you as soon as my astrologers tell me what it is. I don't quite see the use of those nasty little buggers yet, but I'm sure all will be revealed in due time.

Best regards,
High Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

We expect with great enthusiasm the sending of The Weewvil or Weevil, our children already play with a device "Wheel" but we stil have no pratical use for it, we wonder what it can be serv for...

With respect,
Hasdrubal Barca, Ruler of Kart-Hadasht

Greetings to Kart-Hadasht,

Rejoice, for the knowledge of all things round has been sent your way. And it turns out that there are some strange beasts around known as Horses that apparently go on wheels. We have plenty of them around our lands, so my stargazers have decided to try to learn how to ride them. Sounds awfully dangerous to me, but maybe it'll come in handy, who knows?

We wonder if you would be interested in setting up another beneficial trade between our two glorious nations? We know you are looking at shiny metall thingeys, what do you think you'll be up to next? The knowledge of Horseback Riding (150) is somewhat more expensive than that of Bronze Working (90), and furthermore it is a higher-tier technology that will be rarer to come by in trade, and similarly be more likely to be tradable further. Would you be interested in trading BW for HBR, leaving me 90 credits for our next trade? Not only would it benefit both our nations immediately, but would also set us further on the path of glorious cooperation.

What does the ruling council of Kart-Hadasht say on this matter?

Most sincere regards,
High Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

Greetings from the ever working, nonsleeping Great High Council of Elders in Karth-Hadasth

Your tech trade proposal as reached the ears and minds of our elders and another long day and night went by with much discussion in the aceptance of your tech proposal, after some bruised legs and torned faces, the greybeard man finally came to the consensus: Accept! HBR for BW and 90 credits on the next trade seems fair, in the condition of supplying with the information of how many turns will HBR require for completion.

Best Regards for Stoned-Maize,
H. Braca, Ruler of Kart-Hadasht

Ah, very good, very good indeed! The knowledge of HBR is a bit hard to give an ETA on, current estimates say roughly 14 turns, though we are close to relocating some of our people to a new location, so the actual time could be slightly higher or lower than that. We would guess at 12 turns, and hope this is not a problem for the trade as such.

Pray tell, what are your plans for the future after making nice bronze statues?

Best regards,
High Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

We heard rumours of some strange drawings in papyrus and stone, our scholars grow interested in such a subject, however we no nothing of what we are talking about....

With all respect,
Hasdrubal Barca, Ruler of Karthadast and Representive of The High Council of Elders

Fellow greetings to High Pope Stoned-Maize

I´ve sent you the knowledge of Bronze Working, and started studying another form of comunication that won´t probably require speech or hand signals, the ETA on such an enlightment is hard to say, roughly some 19 turns for now...

The High Council of Elders expects the technology of Horseback Riding in a near future and will be in your debt (90 credits on the next trade) as agreed.

Best regards, H. Barca, Ruler of Karthadasth and representitive of the High Council of Elders.

Greetings to QKartthadasshth,

the knowledge of Bronze Working has been well received, now I can finally build a statue in my image! Though my engineers tell me it would have to be on the coast, I don't see why, don't you think I would look good on a mountain top?

Nevertheless, our domesticication of the beasts with wheels goes rapidly forward, and we can now proclaim that 8 turns from now is an upper limit.

The new form of communication sounds intriguing. No speech or hand signals you say? Hmm, does it include mirrors on mountain tops? Well, I'm sure my star gazers will love to hear of it though. They have yet to decide what to pursue after the beasts, maybe the knowledge of stronger metals for even greater statues, or learning how to be even more mysterious than they already are, moving in the direction of a new form of government that will make me even greater! We will surely be in touch regarding that later on, perhaps using mountain-top mirrors? Intriguing idea that...

Best regards,
High-Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

Best greetings High-Stoned Pope,

It´s with great pleasure we receive the secret of Horseback Riding, our scholars tell me the secret of Writing will be ready in 6 turns or less.

All the best,
H. Barca, Ruler and representitive of the High Council of Elders

Best greetings and well-wishes to the Council in Qarthadash!

It is high time to bring out that trading table again. We are rapidly approaching the knowledge of a new metal, said to be harder and better than bronze even, and estimate at most 4 turns left to its completion. We believe you are close, or already finished, with your research on that strange form of communication, no? Considering the relative value of Iron Working (180) and Writing (240), and both being techs on the same tier with equal trade opportunities, it seems reasonable to me to make a straight trade with 60 credits in your favor, leaving me with 30 credits from our previous trade. Would this be to the liking of the Council of Elders?

Best regards,
High-Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

The Council of Elders of Qart-Hadasth send his best to Pope Cornitza,

Your proposal is accepted and we expect that new metal in 4 or less turns, our warriors will surely find a use for it Writing will be sent then and we will be in your debt for 30 beakers as agreed for future trades...

Long life to both our nations and best regards from H.Barca, Ruler of Qart-Hadasth

Very good very good. May I ask what your wise men are arguing about these days? I wouldn't want to hear my wise guys arguing about the
same old things...

They tend to be very reserve...but i payed a silver coin to a little boy who was able to infiltrate their research chamber, he told me the words losophy or something with studying human nature and behaviours or something like that what a crazy bunch my scholars...

Greetings again from Popa Cornitza!

Losophy? Interesting word, I wonder where that will lead you. I truly hope they will speed up their thinking, it would not do to have someone else get there faster...

I must actually begin by apologizing. The messengers dispatched to deliver the knowledge of Iron Working to our southern neighbors were found in a stupor at a lowlife bar. We had to send another team, and sacrifice the first for godspeed. (In other words, I forgot to send it to you on the turn I got it, you had it the turn after, hope there was no problem with that.)

After finding out how to use harder metals, my stargazers have become very mysterious about their next goal. Very Mysterious indeed. I hope and believe something good will come of it, and very shortly too (ETA 3 turns). We hope you will be interested in further trades down the line. How goes your losophy?

Another very interesting development is that our realms seem to be expanding towards each other. We have dispatched a team of workers to build a great road in your direction, they should not be long (~10 turns) until they reach your borders. We will also likely have some spices available shortly, maybe within the same time, and hope to be able to trade them to you our southern friends. Will your merchants be ready?

Best regards,
High-Pope Stoned-Maize Niklas of Popa Cornitza

Glad to hear from our neighbour Popa Cornitza!

We are in the process of establishing a settlement near the dyes to your south, we can then connect our two great nations for trade purposes of course.

Our schoolars had a bit of a regreating and decided to bet on the learning on how to make better ships and travel looking at the stars (these guys are really crazy), the danger of missing losophy would be unbareable for us, so s a cautious nation we bet on the sea, afterall our destiny lies in the sea....

I have received iron working as agreed and sent along writing, the missed turn as no consequence to us....

So, in sum, our merchants will be ready.

Best regards form Qart-Hadasth and the High Council of Elders

In other news, someone passed me in productivity, reaching 52 while I'm still at 51 (but I have one scientist that isn't counted). And my Javelin throwers have managed to round up no less than 3 barbarian tribes and brought them home for slave work.

 

[Niklas]

Behold my magnificent capitol!

 

[Niklas]

And behold my ever-increasing numbers!

[U]Prod	MFG	GNP[/U]
[B]62	23	32[/B]
54	17	26
52	17	25
44	15	25
41	13	21
34	12	19
28	 9	15

I'm thinking my lead is actually due to not building so many settlers, I think the others have expanded more than me. This is evident in that no other town on the F11 list is above size 4, and I'm 5th in land area. I'm hoping to catch up some of that though, since I now have a granary in my FP wheat town and will churn out some 5-turn settlers. But also, my capitol is making 2-turn horses, anticipating turn 80 when the peace deals run out...

Speaking of which, donsig (China), my northern neighbor, finally got around to replying to my peace overtures. We've agreed on peace until turn 80, and I have gifted him CB and Myst on that he researches Poly and trades it back to me. I can afford to be generous since he's pretty far behind at this point.

I'm still wondering who to target first. Carthage is closer, has good lands that won't be corrupt, but also has Numidian Mercs - a pretty big deterrent. But they are also farther ahead, and could pose a threat to me if I don't do something first... We'll see how it goes.

 

[Niklas]

The people of the Grand Opera lack BW (and IW) but have all other techs I have, apparently. I'm guessing he has already met Carthage though, and has traded Maths to them, since HB reported getting Maths from somewhere. Not sure yet if I would be best off trading for Maths with zyxy (if he wants to), or if I ought to instead make a trade with HB. I'll see what the good Carthaginian ruler has to say on the matter first...

After building a settler in my capitol and dropping to size 5, I'm still first in MFG and Productivity, though 2nd in GNP. I'll grow back fairly quickly though.

 

[peter grimes]

Wow - Hasdrubal didn't wait long, did he? I just spent the last 10 minutes reviewing the correspondence between you two. Turn 80 is when the peace deal expired

I know you don't have a lot of time these days, but I love watching a good war (hint hint!)

 

[Niklas]

He certainly picked the right time, didn't he?

I'll see what I can do about war footage. The problem is, most of my army is out on the other side of my empire trying to handle the barb uprising mayhem. I was woefully unprepared.

I was trading him spices and thought I had at least until the deal went out, some 10 turns from now. But I didn't count on the fact that he could take my dyes town and no longer be dependent on my spices

. I also counted on the fact that he had no horses, so I would have at least one turn to get a defense in place. I didn't count on him trading for them

.

I guess I'll be facing a large stack of swords and numidians, and I have only horses and javelins, since my iron was somewhat hard to get to, still haven't connected it. I'll be lucky if I pull a draw out of this war, especially with the little time I have these days.