Perry, a searing contempt for women

Of course they do, the state has to feed prisoners.

There is a difference between a prisoner relying on the state to feed them and a foetus relying on an individual. If the government told you that you alone were responsible for feeding and sustaining Vinnie the car thief, would that be fair?

What more is a human being than a cluster of cells, from your perspective?*

*(This isn't my opinion, I believe in God and the human soul, but Useless doesn't.)

A human being is several interdependent cell clusters that function in unison to provide the essential processes of life. Foetuses are merely extensions of their mother with different DNA until they are capable of living outside the womb. Suggesting that life begins at conception is simplistic and incorrect, sperm and eggs are alive just as the zygote they fuse to produce is.

That is precisely my point. Though i would extend that to the other trimesters without very good reasons such as to save the mother's life.

Well, I certainly agree that lat term abortions (I tend to believe the current limits are too late) should be illegal. I disagree with earlier terms for two reasons:

1) During the early terms the foetus is not particularly human, or is it capable of self sustaining.
2) Women should have enough time to realise their pregnant an make a conscious decision to keep the foetus and bring it into the world.
 
Well guess what, so are you. So does that mean you are arguing against your own existence?
No he isn't. Do pay attention.

If you aren't against abortion you are implicity for it. You must see nothing wrong with it.
False dichotomies - the refuge of someone who doesn't want to debate the issue.
 
Well, legally he's a person, whereas a foetus isn't, but he wasn't arguing against his own existence.
 
So for the "debate" has been:

"Abortion is murder."
"It's slightly more nuanced than that." OR "No, it isn't"
"Yes it is. All abortion is murder." OR "The law is wrong. Abortion IS murder."
"But that's not what murder is defined as."
"Why do you hate people?" OR "Why do you love abortion?"

And so on. Pray tell - is there a massive chasm in between the two camps, filled in with a brick wall, or is there actually anything to debate?
 
So for the "debate" has been:

"Abortion is murder."
"It's slightly more nuanced than that." OR "No, it isn't"
"Yes it is. All abortion is murder." OR "The law is wrong. Abortion IS murder."
"But that's not what murder is defined as."
"Why do you hate people?" OR "Why do you love abortion?"

And so on. Pray tell - is there a massive chasm in between the two camps, filled in with a brick wall, or is there actually anything to debate?

Of course there is something to debate. I have provided facts from a division of planned parenthood showing why women get abortions. I have argued that science proves that a fetus is clearly a human being. I have answered every question posed to me this thread. In return i get arguments as to the precise denotations of murder and convenience. I would think the primary topic of debate would be rights of the mother vs rights of the fetus.

It is rather clear that the pro-choice side can sit on one of two sides. Either a fetus is important, but you support a woman's right to choose anyway either for libertarian issues or out of some other concern for them. In this scenario an abortion is regrettable, but sometimes necessary. A pro-choicer in this camp would claim to be against abortion, but for choice. However because they don't oppose abortion they are allowing them to take place. No matter their protestations they aid abortion implicity. The other group is the more confusing group as they see nothing wrong with terminating a fetus and frankly, their reasons have no basis in science or ethics. Those in the first group may not like abortions, (why would anyone?) but by supporting the ability to choose one they are allowing the act to happen. Therefore they support abortions. In another famous argument over personhood it would be akin to saying "I would never own a slave myself, but it's not my business if others want to."
 
The other group is the more confusing group as they see nothing wrong with terminating a fetus and frankly, their reasons have no basis in science or ethics.
This seems to be too strong of a statement to be correct. Of course there's decent reasoning in both science and ethics for not viewing some stages of a fetus as 'a human being'.

Yes, the fetus is obviously human life. But 'personhood' is clearly more than a group of living human cells. People are arguing as if gestalt states don't matter, which I think is error-prone. People also argue that 'what will be if X' is an all-defining characteristic. Just because something can be something in the future, it does not mean it is one now.
 
This seems to be too strong of a statement to be correct. Of course there's decent reasoning in both science and ethics for not viewing some stages of a fetus as 'a human being'.

Yes, the fetus is obviously human life. But 'personhood' is clearly more than a group of living human cells. People are arguing as if gestalt states don't matter, which I think is error-prone. People also argue that 'what will be if X' is an all-defining characteristic.

Personhood is a complicated issue. The biggest problem being it is rather arbitrary. The point about human life, and human life with a very good chance to become a person, is i feel the more important one.

El_Machinae said:
Just because something can be something in the future, it does not mean it is one now.

True. However barring an abortion there is a very good chance it will become one (assuming in this case you don't already consider a fetus to be a person). I think this should be taken into account. This chance becomes greater the longer a woman waits before having an abortion. There may be a difference between a newborn and a fetus a few months old, but not one large enough imo to merit such radically different legal treatment. Especially, as you have noted, the mother is the only one allowed to treat a late-term fetus as a non-person.
 
Personhood is a complicated issue. The biggest problem being it is rather arbitrary. The point about human life, and human life with a very good chance to become a person, is i feel the more important one.

True. However barring an abortion there is a very good chance it will become one (assuming in this case you don't already consider a fetus to be a person). I think this should be taken into account. This chance becomes greater the longer a woman waits before having an abortion. There may be a difference between a newborn and a fetus a few months old, but not one large enough imo to merit such radically different legal treatment. Especially, as you have noted, the mother is the only one allowed to treat a late-term fetus as a non-person.

The problem when considering potential human life is that it exists within all fertile adults. Every time two adults use contraception or even decide not to have sex a potential human life is 'snuffed out'. As you say, deciding upon the point 'personhood' is attained is quite arbitrary, which it's why IMO it's a bad metric to try and judge abortion ethics by. Instead laws should be based on something concrete and scientific such as capacity for self-sustaining.
 
Personhood is a complicated issue. The biggest problem being it is rather arbitrary. The point about human life, and human life with a very good chance to become a person, is i feel the more important one.

I disagree. "Having a very good chance to become a person" isn't a very important metric. Yes, all people were necessarily once proto-people, but that doesn't mean all proto-people should be people. A fine block of marble has a 'good chance' of being a world-class sculpture, but it very much is not a world-class sculpture. The moral issue of cutting up a fine piece of marble is very different from cutting up a world-class sculpture.

Like the sculpture, the fetus will only become a person if it is finely crafted over the course of months into personhood. And yeah, once it becomes a person, it gains a new dimension of moral significance. Fetuses only have a 'good chance' of becoming a person if a series of very careful steps are taken to make it become so. But, in truth, we force a fetus into sentience (depending upon perspective), it just so happens that the necessary steps in forcing this development takes place fairly instinctively. But, like the marble, the fetus is crafted. The moral status of a 'living human being' changes with time, as the physical status of that human being changes.

Now, the mistake (imo) is to put some type of 'intention' into the fetus. To give it, prematurely, personhood. I write that the mother 'forces' the fetus to develop, and the intuition is that the fetus 'forces' itself to develop too. Now, this is loosely true (the fetus is obviously living), but there is no intention in the fetus. There is no intent that requires consideration. We don't need to take its 'feelings' or 'desires' into our calculations, because the fetus has no 'feelings' or 'desires'.

Upthread, you mentioned that the pro-choice camp had 'no science' justifying their stance. But this just isn't true. A lot of this discussion is regarding perspectives, and our intuitions regarding gestalt organisms. Some people see the 'embryo' as an important organism, because they perceive it to be, essentially the same organism as the later person. And yes, the fusion of the oocytes is a real event that creates a new organism. Remember, though, that these oocytes are actually a chain-of-life going back billions of years. Deciding it's a 'new organism' is reasonable, but still arbitrary. There are other things that also occur during the development of a person that are just as definitive in being a 'start' of personhood. (For example, the formation of the primitive streak, or the beginnings of sentience). Choosing embryo fusion as the morally important stage IS somewhat arbitrary. And embryo has almost no traits that we consider to be morally important in person.

It's my position, one that I think is much more reasonable, that we actually consider sentience and sapience and cognition to be the most important attributes of personhood. As well, it is my position that we consider people as they are in the actual dimension of time when making moral decisions regarding them.
 
So for the "debate" has been:

"Abortion is murder."
"It's slightly more nuanced than that." OR "No, it isn't"
"Yes it is. All abortion is murder." OR "The law is wrong. Abortion IS murder."
"But that's not what murder is defined as."
"Why do you hate people?" OR "Why do you love abortion?"

And so on. Pray tell - is there a massive chasm in between the two camps, filled in with a brick wall, or is there actually anything to debate?


There is nothing at all to debate :p The anti-abortion side will seize on anything, twist anything, to make their point. It's impossible to reason with them.

The irony, of course, is that abortion is the only piece of the social conservative agenda that they might have a legitimate point about. And yet they so discredit themselves on the issue with their behavior that I just can't care whether or not they have a legitimate point.
 
It's impossible to reason with the "pro-choice" side either. For one if you plan to have give birth to your feotus - it's a baby! Don't drink or smoke because you'll damage the baby's health! If you play Mozart to it, it will be smarter! If your planning a termination it's not a baby it's just a "lump of cells". Thats the double-think the "pro-choice" side do.

I imagine it's a big surprise when the "lump of cells" is born and it looks like a baby human!
 
Er, if you want to make a baby, don't put turpentine on the sperm. Right?
No one think that sperm is a baby, though. But mutating sperm (that you will use to conceive) is still considered immoral.
 
It's impossible to reason with the "pro-choice" side either. For one if you plan to have give birth to your feotus - it's a baby! Don't drink or smoke because you'll damage the baby's health! If you play Mozart to it, it will be smarter! If your planning a termination it's not a baby it's just a "lump of cells". Thats the double-think the "pro-choice" side do.

I imagine it's a big surprise when the "lump of cells" is born and it looks like a baby human!
I am fairly certain that playing Mozart to make a 12-week-old fetus smarter won't work on the fetus any more than it likely does the parents.
 
I remember reading in Freakonomics that playing Mozart does absolutely nothing to the baby. Any correlation is based on good neonatal care by the mother and being born into a relatively stable and caring household with a parent or other close individual that reads to the baby and stimulates it.
 
It's impossible to reason with the "pro-choice" side either. For one if you plan to have give birth to your feotus - it's a baby! Don't drink or smoke because you'll damage the baby's health! If you play Mozart to it, it will be smarter! If your planning a termination it's not a baby it's just a "lump of cells". Thats the double-think the "pro-choice" side do.

I imagine it's a big surprise when the "lump of cells" is born and it looks like a baby human!
Which is why having things like this while having contradictory laws makes no sense; the mother deciding that she wants the child doesn't magically make it a human any more than conception does. The government must decide one way or another; letting it rest on what the mother thinks is ridiculous.
 
(note: haven't read the whole thread)


The definition of murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another person.
Question
Was abortion murder pre-Roe v Wade?

Question
Canada decriminalized abortion in 1968, Roe v Wade decriminalized abortion in the US in 1973. Consider two women in 1970, one in the US, one in Canada. Both have abortions. Has either woman committed murder?

:) :) :)

--

El Mac: You are making me think. Stop that immediately. :)
 
Just my 2c on this issue.

Abortion is not murder as the foetus is not a person, until it is born.
(NOTE: I do not really support double-homicide rulings when a pregnant women is killed)

However, I am against late term abortions, as the first 2-3 months should be ample time to decide if you want it or not.
 
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