Persia and Islam

[frog3]

Hello. I know there are many threads on religion etc. and Iran (ask iranian) but I don't have the patience to go through all that and a cursory glance at the search results wasn't so fruitful.

Anyway way, my honest, ignorant question is, how can all you Iranians be happy with a doctrine that is so completly inferior to your own older and more awesome culture and traditions (and older zoroastrian monothiesm). Why do you bow your heads to mecca and the arabs?

I ask this question, because, I am genuinely curious and because as I was idly browsing the net and came across the letter Shâhanshâh wrote to Umar Ibn Al-Khatab.

In the name of Ahura Mazda, creator of Life & Wisdom. You in your letter wrote that you want to direct us towards your God, Allah O Akbar, without having the true knowledge of who we are & what do we worship!

It is amazing that you occupy the position of Khalifat (Ruler) of Tazis, yet your knowledge is the same as a lowly Tazi rambler, roaming in deserts of Tazistan (Arabia), & same as a desert tribal man!

"Little Man", you offer me to worship a united & single God without knowing that it has been thousands of years that Persians worship the mono God & they pray to him Five Times a day! In this land of culture & art this has been the normal path of life for years. When we established the tradition of hospitality & good deeds in the world & we waved the flag of "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" in our hands, you & your ancestors were roaming the deserts, eating Lizards for you had nothing else to feed yourselves & burying your innocent daughters alive (an old Arab tradition, cause they preferred male children to female)!

Tazi people have no value for God's creatures! You behead God's children, even the Prisoners of War, Rape Women, bury your daughters alive, attack the Caravans, mass murder, kidnap people's wives & steal their property! Your hearts are made of stone, we condemn all these Evil which you do. How can you teach us Godly Ways when you commit these actions?

You tell me to stop my Fire Worship! We, Persians see the Love of Creator & power of inventor in the light of Sun & warmth of Fire. Lights & Warmth of the Sun & Fire makes us see the light of truth & warmness our hearts to the creator & to one another.

It helps us to be kind to one another, it enlightens us & makes us to keep Mazda's Flame, alive in our hearts. Our lord is Ahura Mazda & it is strange that you people also, just discovered him & named him Allah O Akbar! But we are not the same as you, we are not in the same level as you. We help other human being, we spread love among humanity, we spread Good throughout the Earth, we have been spreading our culture but in respect for other cultures throughout the whole world for thousands of years, yet you in the name of Allah invade other men's land! You mass murder the people, create famine, fear & poverty for others, you create Evil in the name of Allah. who is responsible for all this catastrophe?

Is it Allah who commands you to murder, pillage & to destroy? Is it you the followers of Allah who do this in his name? Or is it both?

You have risen from heat of the deserts & burnt out infertile lands with no resources, you want to teach people the love of God by your military campaigns & the power of your Swords! You are Desert Savages, yet you want to teach urban people like us who lived in the cities for thousands of years, the love of God! We have thousands of years of culture behind us, a powerful tool indeed! Tell us? With all your military campaigns, barbarianism, murder & pillage in the name of Allah O Akbar, what have you taught to this Muslim Army? What knowledge have you taught the Muslim that you also insist on teaching it to non Muslim? What culture have you learned from your Allah, now that you want to force-teach it to others?

Alas, Oh Alas...... that today our Persian Armies of Ahura have been defeated from your recently Allah Worshiping Armies; Now, our people have to worship the same God, the same Five times a day, but forced by the sword to call him Allah & pray to him in Arabic, cause your Allah only understands Arabic! I suggest, you & your gang of bandits pack up & move back to your deserts where they are used to live. Take them back where they used to the burning heat of the sun, tribal life, eating Lizards & drinking Camel Milk. I forbid you to let your band of thieves loose in our fertile lands, civilized cities & our glorious nation. Don't turn these "beasts with hearts of stone" loose, to mass murder our people, kidnap our women & children, rape our wives & send our daughters to Mecca as slaves! Don't let them do these crimes in the name of Allah O Akbar, put a stop to your criminal behavior.

Aryans are forgiving, warm, hospitable, & decent people and everywhere they went, they have spread seeds of friendship, love, knowledge & truth; therefore, they shall not punish you & your people for your pirate ways & criminal acts. I beg you to remain with your Allah O Akbar in your deserts & do not move close to our civilized cities, for your believes are "Much Fearful" & your behavior is "Most Barbaric"!

signed,

Emperor Yazdgird III of Sasanid

So if any of you iranians could relieve me of my ignorance that would be great. Or anyone really what are your views.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Well, being conquered by this "completely inferior" doctrine and its army helped.

 

[frog3]

"completely inferior"

Firstly, there are other factors that arise that influence the conquest of a nation other than a doctrine.

Secondly, I didn't mean militaristically or politically suitable for conquering nations, I meant morally, ethically and intellectually.

Well, being conquered by this "completely inferior" doctrine and its army helped.

Yeah I understand that it is enforced on them, but they still can read, learn and know about their history. Why praise it? More to the point I'd like to hear an opinion from an iranian about this.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Intellectually?

Funny how Europe was under going the Dark Ages when the Middle East was making great strides forward in mathematics and astronomy.

 

[Lillefix]

I always felt Iran was a little out of place in the middle east. I don't know. The people seem less extreme and fundamentalist and more western than arabs(their leaders are completely mad on the other hand).

 

[Tee Kay]

Secondly, I didn't mean militaristically or politically suitable for conquering nations, I meant morally, ethically and intellectually.

You can't really compare cultures on a scale. If you're talking about barbarism in war or religious persecution, Sassanid Persia was guilty of both.

 

[frog3]

Intellectually?

Funny how Europe was under going the Dark Ages when the Middle East was making great strides forward in mathematics and astronomy.

What the hell has this got to do with anything? Why are you bringing europe into this, this is a total non sequitor. Do you have some agenda? Please go away.

 

[frog3]

You can't really compare cultures on a scale. If you're talking about barbarism in war or religious persecution, Sassanid Persia was guilty of both.

No your right you can't quantify or anything like that. Persia had in my opinion (obviously) far richer culture (morally and intellectually to a bunch of nomads who plagerised some jewish and christian scriptures. e.g human rights Cyrus the Great Cylinder. Poetry. Philosophy etc. longer history. Though as you say this is all opinion, which is why are want to hear an opinion from an iranian.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

What the hell has this got to do with anything? Why are you bringing europe into this, this is a total non sequitor. Do you have some agenda? Please go away.

I think you are the one with the agenda.

 

[HannibalBarka]

For Iranians to answer your questions, you need to formulate them more clearly, your OP is inintelligible as it is.
1. what do you consider "inferior" to what? Islam to Mazdaism and Zoroastrism? or 7th century Persian to 7th century Arabs? or some thing else? and why the answer should be one or the other?
2. based on the answer to one of the options above, what do you think the implication must be? what should present days Persians do ? dump Islam and re-embrace Mazdaism? Even if Zoroastrism is a better religion than Islam (if that makes any sense), todays Persians identify with Islam more than they identify with Zoroastrism for the same reason Greeks worship Jesus, a guy invented by "inferior" people, instead of bowing before Zeus.

 

[frog3]

I think you are the one with the agenda.

haha my agenda is to live a contented life with a good amount of alcohol and to make an effort to understand why people base their philosophy of life on religious books that are so obviously fabricated by political hustlers.

1. what do you consider "inferior" to what? Islam to Mazdaism and Zoroastrism? or 7th century Persian to 7th century Arabs? or some thing else? and why the answer should be one or the other?

Yes, I do consider the 7th century persian culture with its history, literature, philosophy to be far more richer than a culture went from nomadic to basing it on a plagerised, controlling aggressive, doctrine.

2. based on the answer to one of the options above, what do you think the implication must be? what should present days Persians do ? dump Islam and re-embrace Mazdaism? Even if Zoroastrism is a better religion than Islam (if that makes any sense), todays Persians identify with Islam more than they identify with Zoroastrism

well in Islam you take on lots of aspects of arab culture, like wearing arab dress the qurans meant to be read in arabic etc. so its not just spiritual beliefs that it encompasses. I think they should do what I think all cultures with the abrahamic faith should do, use some logic and reason and stop believing in fabricated lies.

for the same reason Greeks worship Jesus

sucks doesn't it?

a guy invented by "inferior" people

Please don't twist my words I did not say any 'people' were inferior. Just their culture and beliefs.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

haha my agenda is to live a contented life with a good amount of alcohol and to make an effort to understand why people base their philosophy of life on religious books that are so obviously fabricated by political hustlers.

Me too.. I don't make threads bashing religion though.

 

[frog3]

Me too.. I don't make threads bashing religion though.

you say that like it's a bad thing.

If something is false should it not be debated? Off topic on a forum seems the best place to do this.

 

[HannibalBarka]

haha my agenda is to live a contented life with a good amount of alcohol and to make an effort to understand why people base their philosophy of life on religious books that are so obviously fabricated by political hustlers.

Reasonable people know that Religion and religious belief is more then "fabricated books". And having drinking alcohol as an objectif speaks for itself

Yes, I do consider the 7th century persian culture with its history, literature, philosophy to be far more richer than a culture went from nomadic to basing it on a plagerised, controlling aggressive, doctrine.

Pre islamic poetry is fabulous, try reading the seven Muallakaat. And post Islam Persia was still a world center for progress, just think of AL Khawarizmi and Avicenna. Even politically, the Abbasid califate was run by Persians (even if the Calife was himself Arab). I still do not see why you consider Pre Islamic Persia "superior" to post Islamic Persia, please give more details

What is the preislamic persian literature you are refering to? and which philisophy? Mazdaism? Mazdaism is a "sexy" religion but I honestly do not see any objective measure to compare it and rank it compared to Islam or any other religion for that matter. Do you have some thing of substance to tell?

well in Islam you take on lots of aspects of arab culture, like wearing arab dress the qurans meant to be read in arabic etc. so its not just spiritual beliefs that it encompasses. I think they should do what I think all cultures with the abrahamic faith should do, use some logic and reason and stop believing in fabricated lies.

Well Islam was born in Arabia so no surprise it has been influenced by Arabs. But today's Islam is truly differetn form Kosovo to Mali to Indonesia to Erytria. And what's problematic with the Quran being in Arabic and not in Farsi?
Now believing in Abrahamic faith is not necessarily againt logic and reason, it is a matter of faith and faith is not "antilogic". I suggest you take a look to "Ask a Theologian" thread, you need it

Please don't twist my words I did not say any 'people' were inferior. Just their culture and beliefs.

I am still waiting for your answer about why do you consider Zoroastrism superior to Islam or other abrahamic religions?

 

[Onionsoilder]

I always felt Iran was a little out of place in the middle east. I don't know. The people seem less extreme and fundamentalist and more western than arabs(their leaders are completely mad on the other hand).

Most of the countries are out of place in the middle east. Back during the Ottoman Empire, each group had it's own boarders and cultures and traditions. For the most part they got along without much conflict, but after WWII, we decided to divide the Ottoman Empire up not based on cultural boarders, but on a completely arbitrary system we designed to maximize the oil we could get from them.

 

[Virote_Considon]

far more richer than a culture went from nomadic to basing it on a plagerised, controlling aggressive, doctrine.

If you hate all this stuff, you'll hate pre-Islamic Persia!

 

[Joecoolyo]

Intellectually?

Funny how Europe was under going the Dark Ages when the Middle East was making great strides forward in mathematics and astronomy.

Don't forget to note Health and Medicine too, if it weren't for them (Arabs), we wouldn't have hospitals

 

[Bill3000]

Anyway way, my honest, ignorant question is, how can all you Germanics be happy with a doctrine that is so completly inferior to your own older and more awesome culture and traditions (and older germanic paganism). Why do you bow your heads to jerusalem and the latins?

 

[Lillefix]

Anyway way, my honest, ignorant question is, how can all you Germanics be happy with a doctrine that is so completly inferior to your own older and more awesome culture and traditions (and older germanic paganism). Why do you bow your heads to jerusalem and the latins?

Are you serious? Why should we care? Yes, my ancestors probably lived in small tribes while the romans ruled Europe. So what? The romans probably lived in caves when the egyptians built the pyramids.

I know the Chinese have this kind of inferiority complex, but I think most of Europe has grown out of it since WW2 and the nazis.

 

[frog3]

Reasonable people know that Religion and religious belief is more then "fabricated books"

I agree but their books are the things they keep quoting to me. It seems to be their sole claim to power. You can add whatever rituals and incantations you want to that but it's still is and based on an illusion. But I guess if you don't think truth is important then I can see where you are coming from.

Pre islamic poetry is fabulous, try reading the seven Muallakaat.

I must admit I'm completly ignorant of this, and google brings up no results telling me about it perhaps you can link? Also is that it, just seven pieces of poetry?

And post Islam Persia was still a world center for progress, just think of AL Khawarizmi and Avicenna. Even politically, the Abbasid califate was run by Persians (even if the Calife was himself Arab). I still do not see why you consider Pre Islamic Persia "superior" to post Islamic Persia, please give more details

1) This proves nothing, all I see is intelligent men who could have done these deeds without anything written in the koran.
2) Why do I think it's superior? You see the sunni and the shia murdering each other? That's entirely religiously motivated.

What is the preislamic persian literature you are refering to? and which philisophy? Mazdaism? Mazdaism is a "sexy" religion but I honestly do not see any objective measure to compare it and rank it compared to Islam or any other religion for that matter. Do you have some thing of substance to tell?

The main argument here is culture. Read some books or websites on persias long history before the coming of islam, in the end it is a difference of opinion on what is 'better', though it seems to me nomads wondering around in a dersert don't make for an interesting culture. my point is that the only arab 'culture' which is islam and forces itself on persia doesnt really add anything to it.

I am still waiting for your answer about why do you consider Zoroastrism superior to Islam or other abrahamic religions?

Read some history, look at the military conquests of islam and christianities, the jihads, the crusades the forced conversions. Just look through the quotes in the quran and the bible on how they should treat unbelievers.