Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[Bucephalus]

I thought I'd leave the settler and movement to you. You have to defend the new town so I thought it best if it was your call about the timing of the placement.

OK, thanks.

It looks like the Dutch are going to fold relatively quickly. A bit surprising after all the worry we had over them. Still, better safe than sorry and there's still some fun to be had.

Better this way than finding ourselves under prepared. Even though we suspected it, we couldn't be sure that they didn't have horsemen; and now it's a queston of getting the balancing act right - getting as many techs as possible, while leaving them sufficiently viable to research some more for us.

So we still get war happiness in despotism eh? Any way to force a declaration from a weaker AI and still retain rep?

If they tresspass, repeatedly demanding a city will get them 'furious', then a demand to leave will often get them to declare.

Later on, failed spy missions have the same effect.

I'm not going to play this today, so as to give the team a chance for some input.

 

[Norton II]

Well, it looks like we've got two major decisions to make besides how much more to hurt Willie: what to do with our leader, and what techs to demand from Willie. As for the leader, I'd rather use the first one for an army than for anything else. That'll let us build the HE relatively early, making it easier to get more leaders. The best techs to demand might be CoL and MM, those being the ones we can't afford to buy. Between those two, CoL should take precedence since it's on the way to Republic. Also, we can definitely get a curragh out now.

 

[CommandoBob]

Don't be in a hurry to use the MGL; I doubt if we'll need an Army, and being able to choose our spot for the FP is priceless. IIRC, the Dutch have the 'Colossus', which would make it a fair site for the FP.

What is the Magic Number for the Forbidden Palace on our world?

 

[Phaedo]

We are on a standard map, but I don't know without checking what that implies.

Personally I like an army as well. We do have another eSword around and a number of cities to take. I think the chances of another leader are good. A little growth before the FP is not a bad thing.

I expect we should be able to get quite a few techs off Willie. In fact, I think if we continue until all the Eastern ground is ours and we push him back to just tundra, we should get all his tech.

I definitely agree that the time is ripe for boats. Tokyo should be set up as a settler pump once it finishes its gran too.

 

[Bucephalus]

Well, it looks like we've got two major decisions to make besides how much more to hurt Willie: what to do with our leader, and what techs to demand from Willie. As for the leader, I'd rather use the first one for an army than for anything else. That'll let us build the HE relatively early, making it easier to get more leaders.

Woah! Slow down - Cbob's game has finished - this is 'Zero Science' not AW!

Seriously though, although there will be occasions when poking with something sharp wil be appropriate, that's not how I envisage us winning this game.

Our war against the Dutch is not about techs - although their acquisition will be nice. It is about land - pure and simple; we will be in possession of good quality land once we have finished with the Dutch.

We would then be best served by building up our infastructure - think gold here - and getting some suicide runs going.

Once we contact the other landmass(es), we will be in prime position to act as tech brokers between them until nearly the IA; having Celts and Hittites happy and economically healthy is vital to such a strategy.

So using our MGL for a sword Army makes no sense whatsoever; I'm not sure what the number is for the FP on a standard map, but it will be reached once we re-populate Dutch lands.

Being able to have a one-turn FP in a place of our chosing is an opportunity that we mustn't throw away on a 'White Elephant' like a soon-to-be redundant sword Army, IMO.

The best techs to demand might be CoL and MM, those being the ones we can't afford to buy. Between those two, CoL should take precedence since it's on the way to Republic. Also, we can definitely get a curragh out now.

Hmm, I wouldn't want to chose between MM and CoL, but if I had to I'd go with MM - Galleys have a better chance than Curraghs of making the suicide runs happen; I agree though, that early Republic is very desirable.

However, I would be hopeful of getting everything the Dutch have once we've done.

 

[Phaedo]

I still like the army, but I would like to keep it empty for future use. I just think there will be other leaders coming along before the war with Willie is done.

I also think our next priority should be exploration, both with suicide boats and around the continent. It would be nice to know what our neighbours have to deal with. While I understand we need some effective enemies to pull this off, I'm not sure we need both Brennus and Murry strong and healthy. Of course, we can't really make a decision until we know who is out there and what they have to work with.

The richer we are, the more effective we can be so infrastructure is key. No knowledge builds are allowed so no Libs. Markets are a priority in our core. We will need some culture though, especially if we have strong neighbours. Norton's suggestion of temples is due some thought.

 

[Bucephalus]

I still like the army, but I would like to keep it empty for future use.

With respect, I think that is a fundamentally flawed approach.

This variant is like no other; it offers a unique set of challenges.

The biggest of these challenges is that - by definition - zero science means that one, maybe several AI civs, will have the last required SS tech before we do. Ask yourself, given that fact, "how are we going to launch first?"

Because the answer to that question will dictate the strategy for the whole game.

I can justify not using the MGL as an Army, in the context of a game-long strategy; I think it only right that you should justify building one with it.

 

[Phaedo]

I can justify not using the MGL as an Army, in the context of a game-long strategy; I think it only right that you should justify building one with it.

Fair enough. Realistically, we aren't going to want to completely control our continent (although fewer civs does mean faster research so kicking out the dead weight has some value). That said, there are going to be times in the game where we are going to want war, and probably before we are stealing techs. Although we will eventually want to go commie for the more effective spies (does fascism have them too?), I assume there will be a time when we will want a war either with a runaway AI or to get a wonder that will significantly improve our position, or to deprive a civ of one. At that time, if we had an empty army, we could make an effective strike in a limited time, achieve our objective and increase our economy (either with settler farms or outright if in Commie). Moreover, that war will in all probably be waged on a different continent. An overseas invasion goes much more smoothly with an army than with units alone (especially if it is before flight). We would also then have the option of disbanding it on the new continent for a quick rush if needed.

All that being said, we get to the stars through constantly trading to a parityish level and stealing once we have the ability. As for how we launch before other Civs when they have the tech to do it, that can happen if we have monster producing cities, destroying enemy productive ability at appropriate times, denial of resources, sabotage or possibly nukes. Some combination of the aforementioned would probably be the winning strategy. The CxxxC SEastern pattern of Kyoto could allow it to grow past 12 effectively and we could give Osaka even more productive potential. We don't really have to have parity until the MA so I'm not worried about that but I would be worried about a runaway AI.

Now, I understand that armies are not going to get us where we want, but all we need is another MGL in our war with the Dutch and we haven't lost anything (I think that is more likely than not with smart attacking). Once we have the army, we can use the next one for the FP (which we aren't yet ready for). After that I don't think there are other economic Small Wonders are there?

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, there are some good thoughts there; what troubles me is that your entire strategy depends upon getting another MGL in this war.

Your assumption that we will get one is ignoring the facts, which are that it is statistically unlikely.

Here's how I would see it panning out:

I would continue the war with the Dutch until our objectives were achieved; those objectives would be to annex the Dutch core and beat up enough of the rest to ensure maximum returns on techs.

I would then pre-build for the FP in Kyoto; once enough shields were in the bag, I would use our MGL to move the Palace to the town which we will build upon the horses, a more central position to our soon-to-be Empire.

I would be sending out suicide galleys to contact the others.

Once contacted, it would be my intention to broker techs between the two continents, which we would be able to do for most of the Middle Ages.

During this time, I would expect our military to be no more than adequate for homeland defence, saving on unit support.

I would expect it to be a time of peace and prosperity with our neighbours.

Once we enter the IA I would be looking to spark our GA around the time that we are wanting to build factories.

Once RP was reached I would look to assimilate the four economically weakest civs in to our Empire; this would likely include Celts and Hittites.

We would then turn our new lands in to tax farms; whether we steal or continue to buy our techs at this stage, it will require lots of money.

Once Fission and Rocketry are known, there would be one final war (The War of Resource Denial); this may be against one, two, or all three remaining civs, but at it's close we would control the World's Aliminium and/or Uranium.

I would want to cause as little damage as possible in this war - we would still need them to research us to Space.

But, as long as we then remained military 'top-dog', the game would be in the bag.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: Without the Heroic Epic (or sometimes even with it) the RNG doesn't favor popping another MGL soon. I'd think that an early FP is a sound investment. The only reason I could think of to justify making a sword army is that it would guarantee Willie folding up with a quickness. But since he apparently never built up the horse troops that he could have (maybe he hit his unit limit early, I dunno), getting his territory and cities with existing Japanese forces seems like a forgone conclusion anyway.

I'd favor controlling this continent, and perhaps having a foothold in others to secure resources and luxuries. There should still be enough healthy civs to do the research.

GOZ12, a 5CC as Korea, is a great example of pulling off a space race with formidable opponants. Different challenge than this one, true, but it does show how some thinking outside the box can overcome the odds.

EDIT: x-post with Buce. I like his thinking. I'd still recommend controling more territory earlier in the game than the IA. Then again, I've been playing only on Huge maps recently, so I'm used to there being plenty of room for other strong civs to build up overseas. His overall plan looks solid.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment: GOZ12, a 5CC as Korea, is a great example of pulling off a space race with formidable opponants. Different challenge than this one, true, but it does show how some thinking outside the box can overcome the odds.

Indeed; and for most of the game we had nothing better than an obsolete Sword Army, which was of little value.

 

[Norton II]

OK, so maybe not a sword army. I guess we have to keep someone around on our continent for now. Bucephalus' overall strategy seems sound, though the timing of our conquest of the Celts and Hittites can be debated later. Also, we shouldn't forget about prebuilding for the spaceship parts, even though prebuilds will be harder to time than if we were researching techs ourselves. Also, Phaedo needs to post the save.

 

[Phaedo]

Also, Phaedo needs to post the save.

I was sure that I attached it. Sorry

I'm easy on the army and without knowing what our neighbours have it's hard to know what to do with the Celts, but an AI that drags behind us won't help us in any way. I'm quite sure that researching gets cheaper as civs drop out. And out of curiosity, what are the chances of getting a MGL? Does anyone actually know the percentage chance?

 

[Bucephalus]

but an AI that drags behind us won't help us in any way.

Not so; having tech disparity is what helps us broker successfully, even once everyone has met.

 

[Bucephalus]

though the timing of our conquest of the Celts and Hittites can be debated later.

It is likely that their usefulness to us will only last until all contacts are made, though a lot depends on whether they have anything that we need.

 

[Phaedo]

Not so; having tech disparity is what helps us broker successfully, even once everyone has met.

Agreed that tech disparity will be what drives our research, but a civ at the bottom of the pack with no gold won't help us and cultivating their land for specialist farms will. Moreover, if tech research speeds up as civs disappear (as either Whomp or Bede said in one of their training games) then having them around actually slows down. In the IA when there are so many research options, faster research by all AIs helps us quite a bit.

Regardless, we need to see what is out there before any of these details can be hashed out

 

[CivActuary]

And out of curiosity, what are the chances of getting a MGL? Does anyone actually know the percentage chance?

lurker's comment: If attacking, a victorious elite unit has a 1 in 16 chance of producing a MGL, 1 in 12 if you have built the Heroic Epic.

If defending, a victorious elite unit has a 1 in 32 chance of producing a MGL, 1 in 24 if you have built the Heroic Epic.

Personlly, I would not ally myself with the RNG gods by banking on getting another MGL

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I feel a concensus beginning to emerge but I'd still like to hear from the rest of the team to see if they have any input to give, so I'll delay playing this overnight.

 

[CommandoBob]

Keep the MGL for the FP/Palace. We'll need it rather soon and we don't, yet, plan on a lot of warfare. We can handle Willie with one arm tied behind our back.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm comfortable with the leader for a rush. I would like to see exploration become a priority. I think we can start on our continent before we end the war as well. It would be really nice to know what we are dealing with at home, despite the necessity to make contact abroad.

Also, after giving my justification for an empty army, I was thinking that perhaps our new city should go on the Rotterdam spot. That would push the dot map a bit to the East, get a town off the fur and give Osaka access to some grass for growth. The Mt and hills give Osaka fantastic productive potential and it will need some grass to keep up the growth.