Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[Phaedo]

I don't think that's too underhanded at all. I didn't realize Willie was in the MA yet. If so, buying the techs is a good idea.

 

[Elephantium]

Bah. I took Amsterdam AND Willie's new capital, and he STILL won't give us all the techs we want. Should we march on and raze Utrecht, hoping for a better deal, or should we take what we can get and worry about the missing techs later?

 

[Phaedo]

Take Utrech as we want it and then we'll go from there. Could you check how many cities he has? It should show you on the trade screen when you are checking out peace.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: The AI tends to get stingy about coughing up techs for peace once the AA is over. This may be the best deal to be had out of Willie. Nevertheless, I'd still take Utrecht for sure and anything else that looked worthwhile.

 

[Elephantium]

Pre-turn: Move a sword from the hill just S of Osaka over towards Groningen. I want 12 swords for the assault on Amsterdam.

IBT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Osaka: Sword->Sword
Celts start Sun Tzu's

Turn 1 (330 BC):

Oops. I make a couple of mistakes in troop movements because I didn't take rivers into account.
Let's see how badly this hurts us...

IBT:

vSword > archer
vSword dies to the second archer.
Osaka riots. WTH? It was happy before the IBT. Oh, duh. One of the MPs left.
I promise I'll pay more attention in the next turns.
Netherlands have a Galley next to Tokyo.

Turn 2 (310 BC):

Prevent a riot in Groningen by hiring a taxman.
vSword > rArcher, promote to elite.
vSword > rArcher, promote to elite.
Change Groningen to Worker. Hey, if we're going to abandon it, we might as well drop it to size 1 before doing so, right?
Change Osaka to Spear (cheap defender/MP) for when it's done rioting.

IBT:

Netherlands puts 4 galleys near our coast. We can also see 4 archers near Tokyo and 1 S of the horse town.
The Hague riots! Again, WTH? It didn't look problematic last turn, nor did CA yelp about it. Sigh, I hire two taxmen (two citizens in resistance).
Order restored in Osaka.
Resistance ends in Groningen.

Turn 3 (290 BC):

eSword > rArcher.

IBT:

Willie lands 2 Warriors next to Kyoto! Ooh, I'm scaaared.
Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Resistance in Hague ends.
Osaka: Spear->Sword

Turn 4 (270 BC):

Hague is still rioting. Umm, okay, hire four taxmen. That will get things whipped into shape.
2x eSword > rArcher (Tokyo)
eSword < rArcher
rSword > warrior x2 (at Kyoto)

IBT:

Willie lands another archer by the capital.
Hittites start Sun Tzu's

Turn 5 (250 BC):

our vArcher > rArcher
vSword > rArcher (at Edo). Sword is elite now.
Tobacco Farm founded, making Curragh.
eSword > rSpear (Amsterdam)
eSword > rSpear
eSword < rSpear, taking 1 HP away
eSword > rSpear

IBT:

Our people want the FP.
Kagoshima: Temple->Barracks
The Hague starves.
Osaka riots! Stupid growth. I hire a taxman.
Tokyo: Settler->Spear
We discover a new source of Iron! It's on the hill NE of The Hague.

Turn 6 (230 BC):

vArcher > rArcher (on the road to Amsterdam), promote to elite
eSword > rSpear (Amsterdam)
eSword < rSpear (now redlined)
vSword > redlined spear. We now own the Colossus! Making Temple (next player can change it, if necessary).
We now have seven new slaves.
We pay 273 gold to Murray for Math and 154 to Brennus for Mysticism.
UNBELIEVABLE. Willie won't give us all his techs for peace. I'm going to take another city before trying again.

IBT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Hague starves. Curragh->Curragh
Order restored in Osaka.

Turn 7 (210 BC):

I take a gamble and attack a spear that just moved to a hilltop. I win unscathed
I accidentally move a guy out of Kyoto a turn early, so I bump up the luxes to 20%. This has a ripple effect in 3 other towns, so I visit them to make sure citizens are working optimally.

IBT:

rArcher < vSword (now elite) in our walled town.
Hittites warn us about trespassing. We apologize profusely.
Celts are annoyed with us about the same thing, so we leave immediately!
Osaka: Sword->Sword
Haarlem: Temple->Barracks (can be changed).
We spot an orange warrior N of Haarlem.

Turn 8 (190 BC):

Our troops enter the culture borders of Arnhem, the new Dutch capital!

IBT:

Amsterdam riots. Ingrates. We make the non-resisters taxmen.
The Hague riots, too. The war is really getting to them.

Turn 9 (170 BC):

Turn luxes back down to 10%.
3 eSwords > archers. We own Arnhem. Making Temple.
Found Green Fields. Making Barracks.
Sword > warrior by Haarlem.
Willie is really stuck-up. He STILL won't give us all the techs we want.

IBT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Order restored in The Hague and Amsterdam.
Groningen: Worker->Worker
Tokyo: Spear->Sword
Celts start on Knights Templar.

Turn 10 (150 BC):

Move some troops. Most of our attackers are tied up in Amsterdam and Arnhem, quelling resistance. I estimate 3-5 turns before they can be moved out.

* Willie currently has 8 cities, at least one of which is on another island SE of Amsterdam.
* Should we raze/replace Arnhem? I kept it - for now - because it comes pre-equipped with a Harbor, and it's a coastal/tundra town, so the harbor will help with growth.
* Tojo is fortified near Amsterdam for instant access after resistance ends.

* I marked battles vs. Willie in our core with red dots.

 

[Norton II]

Nice work! BTW, I just checked out the save, and Willie will cough up all 7 techs for peace, 198 gold, and 13 gpt. We can also buy literature from Brennus for 1 gold and 13 gpt. Maybe we should do that first, then see how much that's worth to Willie. OTOH, Utrecht has pretty good land, and we have some swords nearby, so maybe we should take that, then see what peace terms we can get.
I'm up now, right? If so, I can play tomorrow or Tuesday, after we decide whether to make peace now on the terms I described.

 

[Phaedo]

I like the look of Utrech. Personally I'd raze it and put a new city 1 down the coast but it's not too bad where it is. Slaves never hurt.

We should be careful of the harbor. Murry can demand our lux but the trade route would be through Brennus' land and if there were a change in diplomacy, our rep would be wrecked. It would probably safer to sell it off until we can get nav or shared sea borders (or trade it to Brennus but we might poke him a bit in the future).

EDIT: I only had time to quickly glance at tusker's log, I'll have a closer read and post comments in a bit.

Here's the roster:
Phaedo
Bucephalus leave of absence
Elephantium
Simple Monkey Honoured Lurker
SmartUP
Norton IIOn Deck
Commando Bob


Smart isn't overly participatory so I'm not sure what he's up to. If he doesn't take it 48h after Tusker's post, it's all yours Norton.

As for the next set of goals post Willie, I'd say exploration is key (of both our own continent and suicide boats). We have economic infrastructure to build as well while we're waiting to see what we can do.

 

[Phaedo]

The set looked pretty good Tusker.
About the riots; CAII only gives you updates at the beginning of the turn immediately after the IBT. Make sure you have "city is about to grow" checked on your alerts. then you can figure out if you need the specialist the turn before . Personally I keep all the alerts on except the 1000BC one on. The important ones come up at the top except pollution, which comes up at the bottom of the mini window. You always have to watch resisting towns. All the citizens should be specialists to starve it down anyway but if you have troops stationed there, the citizens that are converted won't come back happy. CAII is a great tool, but it doesn't do all the work for you.

Other than that it looks pretty good. Be careful with those long odds attacks against strong defenders on high ground. It worked out but it's like betting against the house at a casino. You'll lose overall long-term. Oh, and great job scouting our continent! Makes my earlier comment irrelivant.

Norton's observation that Willie will give us all his tech for a price we can afford should also give you some ideas to think outside the box in trading. Try everything, and then decide what the best option is. Paying a little gold is fine for us if we get the techs we want. Just think of it as a trade. GPT is a really nice option and we gave Brennus and Murry almost as much for the two cheaper techs, so why not Willie in the peace deal for more expensive ones.

All and all well done though. You advanced our goals well and highlighted some great management points.

EDIT: The AI does respond to threats so after razing Utrech, it might be worth it to park a stack next to his new capital before offering peace.

We also have some decisions to make. Kyoto is ready for a FP prebuild, but have we decided on a location for a new palace? I like the palace jump idea. We also need to get those furs in our borders. Any ideas about that (other than the obvious temple build?).

 

[Phaedo]

Some thoughts after looking at the save:
Osaka can get an extra gold with an irrigation and working the mined iron hill. OR, Tokyo can be a 4 turn settler pump with an irrigation and working the mined hill. Just changing the citizen to the iron hill gives it 6spt rather than 5.
Haarlem and The Hague need to be starved down
Kagoshima and WHB need the river tiles improved before others. WHB can get an extra gold with citizen reassignment as well.
I favour abandoning Groningen and re-settling.
Keep Arnhem as a pop 2 specialist farm for now and sell the harbor.

Willie has 3 cities on some island. That explains where the horses came from on Buce's set and why they took so long to show themselves.
He'll also accept 13gpt and 178g if we put 2 swords next to Utrecht. I gotta say, I like Utrecht's land especially if our new palace is in Kagoshima. I'd like a bit more space to work with though so as long as it is still size 4 razing it would be nice.

 

[Elephantium]

I favour abandoning Groningen and re-settling.

That's why I put shields from there into a Worker...I figure, if we're just going to abandon the town anyway, we might as well get some labor out of it until we can get a settler over to the new spot. Plus, building Worker cuts down the population that is otherwise wasted

 

[Norton II]

Well, 48 hours is up, so it looks like I've got it. I'll play it tonight, finish and post tomorrow. The plan right now is to raze Utrecht, resettle 1 down the coast as Phaedo suggested, and make peace with Willie on the most advantageous terms we can get. I want to do it quickly, though--I'd like to be able to include lit in the peace deal so we don't have to pay him as much.

 

[Phaedo]

Sounds good.

 

[Norton II]

I'm halfway through the set now. I razed Utrecht, then made peace with the Dutch, getting all the remaining mandatory AA techs for peace and 132 gold. Before I play the other five turns, though, I want to post the first five and a save, which I will do tomorrow afternoon. I'm not sure what we want to do next and would like to get a clear idea before finishing the set.

 

[Norton II]

Here's the 50bc save: View attachment Rage_50BC_Norton.SAV

Preflight:
-change sword in Osaka to settler (2)
-move 3 swords next to Utrecht
IBT: ---
1:
-make taxman in Amsterdam to prevent riots
-3 swords attack Utrecht, each one kills a spear, Utrecht captured and razed
-Eindhoven is new Dutch capital
-Willie offers all techs for peace and 132 gold--we accept
-no embassy with Hittites, so we build one for 87 gold
-but lit from Hittites for silks, 1 gpt, and 21 gold
-buy gems from Brennus for silks, 2 gpt, and 3 gold
-change temples in Amsterdam and Arnhem to workers
-change swords in Kyoto and Tokyo to temples
-no other techs are affordable
IBT:
-Kagoshima barracks->market (25); Osaka settler->temple (5)
2:---
IBT:
-Celts ask us to leave--we apologize and promise to do so (with fingers crossed )
-Kyoto temple->settler (3)
-Dutch start Great Library
3: dinky attempts suicide crossing to Dutch island
IBT: Haarlem barracks->worker (4)
4:
-dinky makes it across
-found Izumo near Holwerd, start worker (10)
IBT: Tokyo temple->aqueduct (15)
5:---

Now, I have to admit that I goofed: I bought lit from Brennus after making peace with Willie to see if we could afford to get monarchy or republic from him--we couldn't. I should have sold it to him to get our gold back, but I didn't, and he bought it from someone else the very next turn.

Right now, both Brennus and Mursilis have Feud and Mono, while Willie has neither. Of course, we can't afford either one. Also, a look at CivAssist II shows that if we switch to republic (not that we can right now, but we'll want to sooner or later), our gpt would drop from 35 to 11, so some of our cities will need to grow before we do that.

Before I continue the set, I need to know where we want to go from here. First, are we definitely going to jump the palace? Phaedo mentioned Kagoshima as a possible new capital; why there? Second, how do we want to conduct research from here on out? An immediate steal from either Brennus or Mursilis would cost around 600 gold; should we save up that much money and prepare for war in case it fails? Or should we just continue to buy techs as we can afford them? I wouldn't mind taking Brennus down a notch or two, but I don't think we want to make him too weak right now. Once I know what we want to do, I can use my remaining turns to start preparing for it.

 

[Phaedo]

We have to keep Brennus as our best friend for the next 20 turns because of our spice deal with Murry. We are trading through Celt land via our harbour. If anything changes (i.e. Brennus and Monty go to war) our rep is trashed. For this reason, our only research option now is trading. Keeping our rep is key so no steals or bullying or attacks.

I think our most immediate concern is meeting the other continent. Galley builds should be the order of the day. This is a high priority. Assuming the other continent is in the MA, we need to become the broker before someone gets Nav.

On that note, once we meet the other civs, we should have more trade options so let's make sure we have some cash in the bank (although I absolutely agree with the embassy buy). We don't want to bankrupt ourselves buying from the civs at home.

I think we should discuss where we want the palace, but I was thinking Kagoshima because is it central to the rivers = uncorrupted gold. Regardless where we put the palace, I think Kyoto should get on a pre-build for the FP.

I also agree that we should wait a bit for the Rep switch but losing the irrigation penalty could speed up growth and might get our economy up and running faster.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: Generally, the CAII notions of when it's a good idea to switch into Republic are misleading, for exactly the reason that Paedo mentioned -- it doesn't take into account the lifting of the irrigation penalty. And since the Japanese are devout folks, it would only take a turn or two to switch.

I have doubts about the trade value of Lit. The AI tends not to value it too highly, sad to say. But it could be worth something depending on how advanced the other civs are.

 

[Norton II]

Sorry it took so long, but here's the 50ad save: View attachment Rage_50AD_Norton.SAV

IBT:
-Kyoto settler->market (12); Amsterdam worker->worker (10); Edo temple->market (34)
-Celts start Sistine Chapel
6: drop lux to 0, gpt goes up to 33
IBT:
-Hittites tell us to remove or declare--I guess our mighty fleet of 3 dinkies is making them nervous! ; we leave, of course
-Osaka temple->market (15)
-Hittites start Knights Templar
7: found Nagasaki east of Kyoto--it'll never be a great city, but it's extra commerce and unit support, anyway; start worker (10)
IBT: The Hague galley->galley (8); Haarlem worker->worker (4)
8:
-send galley south toward Dutch island
-Dutch island dinky looks for suicide crossing
-check cost of tech steals from Celts or Hittites--it's higher now
IBT:
-Brennus demands 31 gold--we cave; Brennus changes from cautious to polite
-Groningen worker->settler (30)
-Arnhem worker->worker (10)
-dinky sinks
9:---
IBT: Greeks build Sun Tzu's
10: check Haarlem's flip risk with CAII, low but needs 16 units to prevent flip, we have 11; move all but one (a regular warrior) out

Pretty uneventful other than our founding a city. I've been keeping some of the captured Dutch cities at zero growth and building slaves in them to lower the flip risk and get free workers. I started a market in Kyoto and have avoided chopping any forests there in case we want to use that as the FP prebuild.

The Celts have theology, the Hittites have chivalry, and they both have all the first-tier MA techs; they might trade soon. We need to find the other continent before too long, or we'll just fall farther and farther behind.

 

[Phaedo]

From what I can see, things look good Norton. I have no complaints about the worker assignments. I think we could starve ex-Dutch towns a bit more aggressively and I'd personally put galleys above markets on the priority list right now but I understand that those builds are easily changed and I think you did the right thing by not committing to anything.

Obviously we have some chancy sea exploration to do in Cbob's turn and that will have to be played by ear. It is imperative that we keep the Murry deal active for the 11 turns left in it. I wonder if it is worthwhile to make an ROP with Brennus to facilitate it. We don't really have any space he can exploit and it would give us safe access to more profitable disembarkation points.

It looks like the next couple of sets will be MMing ones. I must say I would rather take out Willie from our SW earlier than later (flip risk and all). Eindhoven looks relatively productive and I think the other towns are of more value to us as 1 specialist towns than harbour towns for Willie. I do think we should wait until we make contact before we do that as he is the only Civ we could realistically sell to at the moment. Once we make contact, I think our options will improve enough to feel confident about dispatching with the Dutch.

Kagoshima will be at pop 4 next turn. I think when it hits pop 5, we can safely use our leader. I haven't heard any disagreement about that as our new capital site so I'm assuming that is what we are going to go for. Although maybe we shouldn't wait so long. The GLib is open for a pre-build although we don't know for how long. Once we switch, we should gain as we are pretty much roaded and once the FP comes we are laughing. We have a chance at another MGL if we clean out the SW but with only 4 cities, it would take some cagey leader hunting. I think our chances are even if it is a 1 in 13. We have 11 eSwords. If we only attack with them and don't worry about healing them (we want to thin out our force anyway) I think the odds are in our favour if I understood Civ Actuary's stats lesson he gave me in the Cbob AW game. Each consecutive attack with an eSword makes our odds better. It's not an immediate concern but it's something to think about. I think we will eventually want to clear out the SW and when we do, I think we have a good chance at getting an MGL out of it.

Do we have criteria for a rep switch? I don't have CAII open but things look about ready. Once we jump our palace, we should be fine. the reclaimed corruption should make up for the unit upkeep.

My final thought is to send our dinghies overseas at the closest opportune location. If the sea square extends 1 past the coast, send it out. All we really have to lose is upkeep. We can build galleys faster than we can get them back to upgrade.

All that being said, here's the roster:
Phaedo On Deck
Bucephalus Back shortly
Elephantium
Simple Monkey Honoured Lurker
Smart
Norton II
Commando Bob UP

 

[CommandoBob]

Despotism 280 gold +33 gpt
We say we are researching Feudalism

City Builds

1. Kyoto (5) market in 8, grow in 3
2. Amsterdam (3) worker in 6, zero growth, 1 taxman
3. Kagoshima (3) market in 15, grows in 1
4. The Hague (3) rGalley in 6, grows in 8
5. Osaka (5) market in 10, grows in 9
6. Izumo (1) worker in 4, grows in 4
7. Groningen (1) settler in 29, grows in 9
8. Toyko (6) aqueduct in 10, grows (?) in 4
9. Arnhem (5) rSword in 29, zero growth, 1 taxman
10. Haarlem (2) worker in 3, zero growth, 1 taxman
11. Edo (4) market in 30, grows in 2
12. WillesHillyBilly (3) temple in 2, grows in 5
13. Tobacco Farm (2) rGalley in 5, grows in 5
14. Green Fields (2) barracks in 9, grows in 9
15. Nagasaki (1) worker in 7, grows in 7

City Build Summary

• Market [4] (Kyoto, Kagoshima, Osaka and Edo)
• Worker [4] (Amsterdam, Izumo, Haarlem and Nagasaki)
• rGalley [2] (The Hague and Tobacco Farm)
• Settler [1] (Groningen)
• Aqueduct [1] (Tokyo)
• rSword [1] (Arnhem)
• Temple [1] (WilliesHillyBilly)
• Barracks [1] (Green Fields)

Japanese Military

• 09 Workers
• 23 Slaves
• 05 Warriors
• 03 Archers
• 02 Spears
• 24 Swords
• 01 Galley
• 03 Curragh
• Military Costs
  • 60 Allowed Units
  • 48 Actual Units
  • 00 gpt Support Cost

We are Average compared to Celts.
We are Average compared to the Hittites.
We are Strong compared to the Dutch.

We have an MGL we can use.

All of the known world is at peace.

We cannot buy Republic with our current gold.

Wonder Races

• Great Library
  • Alesia - Celts
  • Tyrana - Hittites
  • Eindhoven - Dutch
• Sun Tzu's
  • Entremont - Celts
  • Hattusas - Hittites
  • Sparta - Greece
• Sistine Chapel
  • Richborough - Celts
• Knights Templar
  • Lugdunum - Celts
  • Ugarit - Hittites

Resources
01 Horse
02 Iron

Luxuries
01 Silks
01 Gems (Imported)
02 Silks (Exported)
The Celts have Wine and Furs to trade (so we could be drunk and warm at the same time).

On our little island we have the most cities and the poorest culture.
We are also the richest.

*************************************
Long Term Plans
Be the dumbest people to get into space.
Yeah, buddy, we'll have CB radios in space with the red neck geeks, comeonback, 10-4?

Middle Term Plans
Explore the world and meet new people.
Once we somehow learn Printing Press we can sell communications to our neighbors, if any are left.
Secure more land for more strategic resources and luxuires.

Initial Short Term Plans
Get Kagoshima to size 5 quickly and rush a new palace, making Kagoshima our new capital.
Start the FP in Kyoto?
Use workers wisely, roading first then mining or irrigating, always looking ahead to being in Republic.
Somehow buy Republic from someone, or extort it from a weak neighbor (like those Orange guys in our Southwest).
Would like to place two fort towns on the Celt border (one 1N-1NE of Edo, on the coast, and the other 1N-1NW of Haarlem).

Get our boats out exploring.

I think we should go ahead and change the Orange lands to Green in the Southwest. Willie has 7 cities and only four, including the capital, are in the southwest. Two more are southeast of Amsterdam on an island and the last is a desert based city on a spit of land that even the Celts didn't want.
Even after we remove the Dutch infestation, we can still sell William down the river to other civs.

Except that we have 11 turns of peace.

I don't see any luxuries in the southwest.

I do see furs, unconnected, 2SW of Groningen and 3NE of Green Fields. How do we want to claim it: colony, city or culture expansion?

 

[Phaedo]

I like the colony idea and don't forget the suicide missions