Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[Elephantium]

Got it. I'll wait on the results of your experiments before proceeding, Phaedo.

 

[Phaedo]

Well, it was a limited experiment but I think it shows the advantage of razing over just a threat.

I used the turns after Tuskers last set with Utrecht.

While all units were in our territory, Willie would have given all his tech for 20gpt and 72g.
After I moved 3 swords in that deal changed to
All tech for 20gpt and 52g.

This is shows pretty clearly the advantage of peace with a threat rather than mere peace but doesn't help our question.

It took 2 turns (and I did have to kill 2 spears that entered our territory) but I razed Utrecht (Willie's Cap at the time).

After that, Willie would give all his tech for:
5gpt and 2g
There were no units in his territory and he had 2 spears in no-man's-land.

Kicking him off our continent will relegate him to his little island. This lessens our potential threat but his final city that we destroy will be his Cap so I think the situations are analogous.

I say, kick him off the continent.

p.s. I didn't run the same experiment with taking the city but I'm pretty sure razing will give us a better deal.

 

[Elephantium]

Okay, I'll start playing tonight.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I've had a chance to view the thread and the latest save.

Elephantium, if you haven't already played, can you hold off from doing so?

I've some radical proposals to make, and 10 turns more may see us miss our window of opportunity.

I will post details later today.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: I'm eager to see what Buce has up his sleeve. The jump from AA to MA is usually a big turning point, as far as my own game play goes.

Raze Utrecht for sure.

Oh, and I hope to be able to take a few turns come April and my scedule gets slightly more sane.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK. The first thing I have to say is that I agree with the strategy of poking Willie with the pointy-stick once again; he will cough-up either Feudalism or Republic already, but I see no reason to take just the one tech. If necessary, we can put some swords in a couple of galleys, and reduce him to a OCC; I'm sure he'll be happy to give us both techs at that time.

Now for some observations:

It seems to have escaped attention (at least I haven't seen it mentioned) that Celts are buying Iron from Hittites; looking at the tech situation, they are also happily trading techs. This is not good for us - we need to find a way to put a stop to this love-fest.

Both are 'strong' compared to us; there are only two ways to address that problem - either we get stronger or they get weaker.

We have a key resource that we are not using to our advantage, namely Horses; apologies if I'm teaching Grandma to suck eggs, but I suspect that not all of you realise that we do not need a surplus of a resource to trade it away - we can sell our only source if it is desirable to do so.

We are falling way behind on techs.

So, what can we do to address these issues?

The key to beating the AI beyond Emperor level is to think outside the box, and that is what is required here; and I have a cunning plan......

Step 1: We declare war on Hittites

OK, I can hear your thoughts - "Buce has finally lost his sanity", but bear with me.

Step 2: We ally Celts by giving them our Horses. Why would they agree? Because we are exploiting a major weakness in the programming. The biggest advantage that the human player has is the ability to plan ahead, to visualise the consequences of an action; this, the AI cannot do, it sees the game in the here and now. Celts undoubtedly have Chivalry; they have a source of Iron, so when we offer them Horses, 'Knights' will flash in big neon letters in front of Brennus' eyes. He will not be able to foresee that by declaring war on Hittites he will lose his source of Iron.

Step 3: We then trade our surplus Iron to Brennus; in times of war, military resources take on a new and higher value, and I'm certain that Brennus will give us either Engineering or Monotheism for Iron.

We won't need to do any fighting, we can just concentrate on stinging Willie while they kick big lumps out of each other; there is no reason why we can't keep their conflict going for as long as it suits us. We have money, we have Horses that we don't need, and we have surplus Iron; anytime that Hittites buy peace, we can outbid them and re-establish war, picking up techs along the way.

All this is going to slow the tech pace on our Continent, and should eventually allow us to exploit the disparity with the other Continent, particularly once we are a Republic with more money.

Any comments?

 

[Bucephalus]

I have one more proposal.

Simple Monkey was originally part of the team that started this game; despite having to drop out, he continues to give a valuable - and much valued - contribution. As far as I'm concerned, he is still a member of this team and I think it inappropriate that he wears lurker tags - I move that we invite him not to.

 

[CommandoBob]

Any comments?

You should disappear move often. It gives you delicious ideas.

I have one more proposal.

Simple Monkey was originally part of the team that started this game; despite having to drop out, he continues to give a valuable - and much valued - contribution. As far as I'm concerned, he is still a member of this team and I think it inappropriate that he wears lurker tags - I move that we invite him not to.

Fine with me.

 

[Bucephalus]

You should disappear move often. It gives you delicious ideas.

Thanks, CBob.

You have no idea how much I've missed playing this game - I truly have Civ-addiction.

 

[Norton II]

I fully endorse all of Buce's proposals. My only concern is that one side might gain a permanent advantage over the other, but we can deal with that if it happens.

 

[Elephantium]

Buce, I shall put your plan into effect immediately.

And honestly, I haven't played any turns yet - it's been a busy week at work, so I haven't had much time for civving. However, I should be able to play my turnset between tonight and tomorrow night.

Edit: I also concur that SimpleMonkey is an honored member of the team and should feel free to drop the lurker tags.

 

[Elephantium]

Pre-turn:

Declare WAR on the Hittites!
Buy the Celts into the war for horses. They also give us 7 gold.
Trade Iron to the Celts for 48 gold and Engineering.
Move the troops fortified at the northern border down to Nagasaki in case one of our enemies tries landing next to it.

IBT:

Brennus asks us for a ROP. I decline.

Turn 1 (360 AD):

Trade China Lit + Engineering for The Republic.
Willie will give us Feud + Monarchy for 38gpt+10 gold. Guess we have to hurt him more.

IBT:

Kyoto: Spear->Courthouse
Osaka: Spear->Spear
Celts start on Bach's Cathedral.

Turn 2 (370 AD):

Middleburg -
eSword > spear x2 (2-0). Middleburg razed, two slaves taken.

Maastricht -
eHorse < spear (2-1)
vHorse > spear (3-1)

Now Willie will cough up his techs for 22gpt+18 gold. I'm going to wait one more turn and see what he says after we raze Maastricht.
Oh, and I revolt since we have Republic now.

IBT:

Not much. We see Willie and Murray move some boats near our shores, that's all.

Turn 3 (380 AD):

Found Ice Shelf SW of Kobe, on the coast. Making Galley (or will be, once Anarchy ends)
eSword < vSpear (now redlined, 3-2)
eSword > spear (4-2)
eSword > Spear (5-2), Maastricht razed.

We meet the Greeks. They have Monarchy, Monotheism, and Feudalism.
They'll offer 5gpt for Lit.

Willie's price is 88 gold for peace + his techs.

IBT:

We're now a Republic.
Greeks complete Leo's.

Turn 4 (390 AD):

Change Kyoto to Settler.
Willie's price works out to be 4 gpt+16 gold. We take it.

Asking prices (I didn't want to spend all the time haggling):
Brennus - Invention for 11gpt+1096
Mono for 1060
Wines for 350
Alex - Invention for Lit, 7gpt+1096
Mono for Lit + 1000
Cleo - Invention for Lit + 1050
Mono for Lit + 830
Willie - 13gpt+20 for Engineering
Mao - broke

Which deals look the best? I'd like to sell Engineering to Willie, buy Invention from Cleo, Monotheism from Alex, and Wines from Brennus.

For the techs - yes, we need them (long-term goals), yes, we can afford them (with some haggling), but...no, we can't trade them profitably. Yet.

For the wines, well, we can hold off on trading for those. They won't do us much good until we've grown a bit.

As an alternative, we could try trading for Mono first, then buying Theology and maybe even Education in this round of trading. I'd like to get us to Astronomy ASAP (quicker exploration!).

Edit: Oh, and an Embassy with Alex will cost 114.

 

[Norton II]

Nice to know that lit turned out to be useful after all. As for what trades to make now, I'd say trading for mono first and working toward astronomy (and banking) is better. By focusing on one branch of the tech tree, we'll be more likely to spot monopoly techs and either buy or steal them. Also, both astronomy and banking will help us more than anything on the bottom half of the MA tech tree--if we must go to war, maces and trebs will suffice.

 

[Bucephalus]

Excellent - it's always gratifying when a plan works out, and you implimented it well - good work.

I suggest giving Brennus a ROP; it improves attitude, and right now he is our best friend - let's keep him that way.

Let's take some time to pause and think about which side of the tech tree to climb; I, for one, need to analyse the situation before I can give an opinion.

What we are looking to do here is to determine which side of the tree Brennus is researching, then we will trade with the other continent for the opposite side.

Elephantium, could you post an interim save?

Edit: Brennus is building JS Bachs, so it seems likely he's researching the top of the tree; that being the case, it would be prudent to buy lower tier techs.

 

[Phaedo]

Well done guys! I've been AWOL fro a bit and a lot has happened since last I checked.That was cool.

Good to have you back Buce! I fully support Simp's not using lurker tags.

If you haven't traded Lit around the other continent yet that should be done. Better we get the gold rather than China.

 

[Bucephalus]

Buying Invention from Cleo for Lit and gold seems the best deal on the table, but I'd really like to see a save first.

Phaedo is right that Lit should be hawked around after that.

 

[Elephantium]

Here we go:

 

[Bucephalus]

Thanks, Elephantium.

I've had a chance to look at this, and it's all good news; with some canny trading, we can get Invention and Gunpowder without you playing another turn. That is as far as the lower tier has been researched - once the others have Chemistry, we can acquire it and begin to trade with Brennus for upper tier techs. There is a lot of adjustment to be made in builds -Markets and Ducts should be the priority. We have a number of useless units that are eating unit support (reg warriors, archers and spears), all of which should be disbanded.

We have no Salt but Celts have a supply right on our border which we can pick up with a mildly aggressive city placement. Obviously, we will then sell it back to them.

I'll post detailed guidance later tonight (GMT).

We are right back in this game.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, this is how I would proceed, though it may be prudent to wait until the team has a chance to voice their opinions.

Establish ROP with Brennus.

Trading:

As I mentioned before, Brennus is researching the upper tier, so I would suggest we do the opposite.

1) Engineering to Willie for 16gpt and 24g.

2) Give Cleo Lit and 940g for Invention.

3) Give Alexander Lit and 68gpt for Gunpowder.

This reveals that we have no Salt, but there is a source just inside the Celt border. (I will provide a dotmap to show how to acquire it)

Osaka is currently set to build a Pike, which we don't need (in fact we need to reduce our unit support costs, not increase them). It will grow in six turns and can give us a Settler in four, so I would build wealth for two turns then switch to a Settler for 'Salt City'. Don't be afraid to build wealth anytime that there is nothing else of use to be built - every gold piece that we can generate is useful in this variant.

Kyoto needs to switch production to the FP; once it grows (in three), mm for zero growth by working the forests with Silks - this will give us the FP in 31 and will add an extra six gpt to our coffers.

Kagoshima is building a horse (due in one turn); this unfortunate as we don't need it (in fact I'd be tempted to disband it somewhere useful), but then switch to wealth.

Zumo has a citizen working an unimproved grassland; if you switch it to a mined BG it will give a market in 37 turns, less once it grows.

I would switch all Courthouse builds to Markets or 'Ducts, whichever is appropriate.

The exception would be Groningen; I can't remember it's current build, but I would switch it to a Temple (a loss of 3 shields) to expand it's borders to capture the gold on the hill. Afterwards, build a Market using forest chops to hurry it along.

Finally, we have a number of redundant units to be disbanded (warriors, spears, archers). If you can disband them somewhere useful, do so, but don't let them walk far - 2-4 shields is less useful than the 2gpt saved in unit support.

This is the dotmap; I've shown the position of the Salt and the necessary city placement (blue dot) to acquire it.

The city builds are adjusted to how I would have them.

Spoiler :

 

[Elephantium]

Does anyone have any commentary to add to Buce's wisdom? If not, I'm going to follow his plan and finish my turnset.

Edit: Also, I'll be on vacation April 6-15.