Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[Phaedo]

The Roster:
Phaedo UP
Bucephalus presently sick
Elephantium On Deck
Simple Monkey Lurking
Smart
Norton II
Commando Bob

I agree that it is time for some settlers. I hadn't thought about temples but as we can't build Libs, I guess we need culture from somewhere. I haven't really thought through temples and would like to get some more input but it seems the initial war turns will fall to me so I definately want a settler kicking about. I also like the HBR buy also. We should have horses soon
I got it by the way.

 

[CommandoBob]

I agree that it is time for some settlers.

Best place for a settler in Kyoto, currently at size 7 and netting 10 shields per turn.


Rambling Thoughts on Swords and Settlers
We have 17 Swords at the moment with three more in production. In 4 turns we will have a total of 20 Swords. I assume we'll attack with at least 15 swords and all our Archers; leaving Warriors for garrison duty, with a few Swords scattered about for an extra defensive punch.

Somehow I've got the idea that the unlearned, sword wielding masses of Japan would gather together 1W of WilliesHillyBilly and then march NE to Rotterdam. It will take units in Toyko and Osaka two turns to reach that jumping off location; units in Kyoto will take three turns. Rivers slow us down.

Our trade deal with Willie ends in just a few turns. But we need to move troops now, just in case Willie wants to renew the deal and gets testy when we say no.

We need to determine if we want any Swords to serve as the Home Guard. If we do want a Home Guard, the current builds would serve very well for that purpose. Tokyo and Osaka will continue to create Swords as long as we are at war with Willie.

But Kyoto is not so clear cut. Change the Sword to a Settler now and we can use it very early in the war. Kyoto will drop to size 5 but should grow back to size 6 rather quickly so once again it can be cranking out Swords every three turns. Or, finish the Sword, then build the Settler, which keeps it from being a front line target.

I wonder if we can set Kyoto up as a 4-turn settler factory for a turnset or so. We do need to repopulate what we take from Willie. I don't think he has any wonders, so we'll just raze his cities and get cheap labor.

Do we have a dotmap of how we want settle the Orange land to our southeast?

 

[Norton II]

I wonder if we can set Kyoto up as a 4-turn settler factory for a turnset or so.

You mean Tokyo, right? It's the only one with a food bonus. We could make it into a 6-turn pump pretty easily, but we'd need to build a granary first.

 

[Phaedo]

Do we have a dotmap of how we want settle the Orange land to our southeast?

Ask and ye shall receive).

This is just a personal take on placement and it is open for debate.

Spoiler :

The orange dot is on the fur.

Regarding war:
Osaka is vulnerable to an attack from horse. We also should put a unit on that mountain as we don't want Willie to get that terrain advantage. I'd like to take Rotterdam first and then East but I'd also like to raze Utrech sooner than later. I'd also like to see Willie send his horse against us before we make the big push int his territory. We have a good kill zone and if we leave Tokyo open, it might draw him in.

The southern bit can wait for a while. I expect about 4-5 warriors/archers will come at us from the south so that should be defended. A settler pump is a good idea. They are not my forte but it seems Norton's suggestion for Tokyo seems good.

I expect to start massing troops from the beginning of my set and I'd like to make the settler earlier rather than later. However because I expect to weather an attack at the beginning, I'd like Kyoto to finish its sword first.

 

[Phaedo]

So basically, I intend to position our troops on the hills and mountains and wait for Willie's initial attack. Once he blows his load, we advance.

I'll look into making Tokyo a settler pump and keep the rest on swords. I'm intending to change Edo to a rax.

I'll make the HBR trade on turn 0 as well.

Questions, comments or insights?

 

[Bucephalus]

You'll need to remain mindful of Hittites, so you'l need a garrison protecting the North; and since it's there anyway, why not use it to take out Haarlem?

 

[Phaedo]

3-4 swords ought to be enough to take Harlem and defend against the north. I'll play the next three turns tomorrow and post a log and screenies to get input.

 

[Bucephalus]

Do we really need to spend gold on HBR? Willie will be donating that for peace.

 

[CommandoBob]

Wild Willie has one horse connected, but we plan to change that.

I think that we have enough swords to handle Willie, especially if we declare and he attacks us on hills. He will probably attack us with horses. Some will die, some will run away and be killed. I'm not worried about them. They can be pests, but they won't be decisive.

And while this is not much help, I didn't see any Orange Horsies on my turnset.

Overall, I don't think we need HBR to take out WilliAm of OrAnge.

Too bad we can't spend that gold on units.

 

[Phaedo]

There may be a better tech to take but we could start using it as soon as we take Rotterdam. It would speed up the invasion. We could get it for 96g and 10gpt (if memory serves). Myst would advance our trading more but only towards Monarchy, which I am assuming is a rather low priority for us. Horses could reinforce our troops faster, take off hit points (thus saving swords) and possibly retreat (saving builds). If there is an interm tech we could use HBR is it. Having said that, if there is a better use for our gold I'm all ears (I think we are good for upkeep for a while so if it's not used it's just an incitement for demands).

Quick question: in despotism, is there any dis/advantage to declaring war, or only in WW gov'ts?

EDIT: Crosspost with Cbob. If he doesn't have horses, the strategy changes a bit. We don't have to wait. I'm assuming you didn't poke into his territory on your set as he is still happy with us. What does the team think the odds are that he has at most 3 horses in his army?

Edit 2: Anyone have a problem with a 2-turn exploratory venture into Willie's territory, starting on my turn 0 and getting the boot for recon purposes?

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: I'd have to look at the save for a better location, but I'm wondering if Orange Dot could be shifted to not be on top of the furs. Furs = gold for unit support and trading.

Willie may try a few pop-rushes of horsies, but the sooner his supply is cut off, the sooner HBR will become useful. To Japan, that is. I'd think it would be worthwhile to get it now. A quick turnabout of who's paying stable fees (you vs. him) could mean a decisive edge, for all the reasons that Phaedo mentioned.

Definitely take Haarlem.

AFAIK, declaring in despot doesn't affect WW, since there isn't any. Just the usual rep and attitude issues.

Declare and go harvest some tulips.

 

[Bucephalus]

Having said that, if there is a better use for our gold I'm all ears (I think we are good for upkeep for a while so if it's not used it's just an incitement for demands).

I think that a better use for our money will come; if we hurt him enough, Willie will cough up HBR and more besides.

And who but Brennus might demand it? We are already at war with the Hittites, and Willie can take a hike.

And if Brennus comes calling, it'll be a demand for 20g or so.

Neither do I think we need horses for this war; IMO, Willie will cave inside 2 turnsets - I have a strong suspicion that Willie has built archers as opposed to horsemen.

 

[Phaedo]

Here's the log so far. We are getting a bit of Hittite pressure form the North. I'm not quite sure what to do about it but I'm not too worried yet

Turn 0 750BC

Start shuffling troops around to see what I have to work with
Most is just repositioning to hills and mountains

IBT A Hittite sword/archer pair appear from the North

T1 730BC
Continue consolidating forces.
It is unfortunate about the Hittites but I can get 1 vSword to Edo this turn and 2 more will be close next turn.
We should have 2 stacks of 5 vSwords and an archer each by the time we want to declare with a defensive garrison and more swords coming.
Willie is sending a settler pair north. He only has desert to take though so I'm not too worried.

IBT Edo worker>rax

T2 710BC
Attack the Hittie units. Redline the sword but lose a vSword (0-1)
Kill the archer (1-1)
Kill the sword with the warrior in Edo and he gets promoted (2-1)
Hitties have gone from being insulted at a straight up peace deal to doubtful.
Brennus offers Myst for 2gpt and all our gold. I've been thinking that if we are going to buy something, it should probably be myst as that will lead to poly and get us closer to the next age. But I'm not going to make a deal at the moment.

IBT Hittites end down 2 rArchers and 2 rWarriors.
Kyoto sword>sword (I'd like to make up for the lost unit before dropping pop)
Osaka sword>sword

T3 690BC
vSword is healing in Edo, 2 more full strength have joined it and one is 1 square S.
Edo's recently build warrior is heading S to set up Tokyo as a settler pump

IBT The Hittites are being sneaky. They send 1 archer into our territory while 2 warriors and an archer can attack any unit that kills it.
Willie moves his settler pair back.

T4 670BC
Kill the archer (still full strength) (3-1)and pile all the troops out of Edo onto the square. Hopefully the empty Edo will be more enticing than the stack of 4 full-strength swords.
We have 2 stacks of 5 vSwords and 1 vArcher on the hills, 3 vSwords in Hilly Billy, a vSwords and archer in the mountain and a warrior and swords in Osaka.
We are set for war.

I'm going to pause here for input

Screenies

Spoiler :

 

[Bucephalus]

I expect that if you kill those Hittite units without losses, Hittites will give peace for a nominal gold payment; I wouldn't begrudge a small payment to get them off our backs before we go for Willie.

 

[Phaedo]

Do you think going to war with Willie before peace will affect the deal? I'd like to kill a few more of their troops before peace. As I see it here are my options:
Make peace, then declare
Declare, make peace next turn
Wait a turn to declare.

I like option 2 best but if entering a war will make the peace more expensive, I'd rather not

 

[Bucephalus]

Double post.

 

[Bucephalus]

I think peace first is highly desirable, IMO as I'm sure the price will go up if we are dogpiled; we should also bear in mind that while we fight Hittites there is always the possiblity that they will ally Brennus against us.

DOW the Dutch at your discretion.

 

[Phaedo]

Set cont.

T4 670BC
Kill the archer (still full strength) (3-1)and pile all the troops out of Edo onto the square. Hopefully the empty Edo will be more enticing than the stack of 4 full-strength swords.
We have 2 stacks of 5 vSwords and 1 vArcher on the hills, 3 vSwords in Hilly Billy, a vSwords and archer in the mountain and a warrior and swords in Osaka.
We are set for war.
Post, wait and think about it for a while. I decide to let it wait a turn, make peace and then declare.

IBT Ductch reinforce Utrech with a spear.
The Hittites send down another archer,a sword AND a galley. Peace it is

T5 650BC
Kill 2 Hittite warriors and make peace for 20g.
Somehow, making peace and paying for it made people in Kyoto and Osaka unhappy. I wonder why? Up the lux to 10% now at 6gpt
Demand Myst, which Willie won't give us so declare. Let's see what he's got.

IBT Hittites run away home
Willie sends 4 warriors up from the south (3 reg 1 elite) and a spear SE of HillyBilly
The settler pair also runs back to Haarlem
Tokyo sword>settler

T6 630BC
Decide to keep Kyoto pumping out 3-turn swords. Tokyo can make a 3-turn settler and then switch to a gran.
Kill the Dutch settler pair (1-0)
pull forces back to Edo
It's odd, Willie only has 1 spear coming from the west.
Take the spear that moved into our territory with 2 swords (2-1)
Move 4 units on him to cover.

IBT Willie moves 5 units in (4 warriors and a spear). An archer moves into view
Osaka sword>sword

T7 610BC
Pull back the sword that took the settler pair
Kill the spear that entered our territory
Kill the eWarrior and our sword gets promoted
An rWarrior fights off a vSwords (4-2)

IBT Willie's warrior moves further inland and the archer enters. 2 more warriors appear from the south.

T8 590BC
That same warrior kills off ANOTHR sword before being overcome (5-3)
Kill the archer (6-3)
Sword kills one of the warriors and is promoted (7-3)
Kill the other warrior with no loss (8-3)

IBT Celts build the Hanging Gardens
Willie moves an archer and some warriors close from the west
Tokyo settler>gran

T9 570BC
Take out the archer that moved in. (9-3)
Send a stack in against Rotterdam
Move the settler to WHB

IBT A spear moves into our area as do 2 warriors

T10 550BC
Kill the spear. Those hills make a great kill zone (10-3)
Attack Rotterdam with our eSword. Lookie what we got (11-3)

Continue the attack. Lose 1 sword but promote one and take out 2 more spears and an archer. Raze Rotterdam (14-4)
Attack Haarlem. Lose 2 and take to. Haarlem holds. (16-6)
Take out the warriors that entered (18-6)

I'm going to save it here. We have a leader as yet unused, a settler that can be moved and a couple of units with movement.

The current empire:

Spoiler :

 

[Bucephalus]

Good stuff. Looks like Willie didn't have horses then, as suspected.

The unhappiness was caused by loss of 'war happiness'.

Don't be in a hurry to use the MGL; I doubt if we'll need an Army, and being able to choose our spot for the FP is priceless. IIRC, the Dutch have the 'Colossus', which would make it a fair site for the FP.

 

[Phaedo]

Phaedo
Bucephalus UP
Elephantium On Deck
Simple Monkey Lurking
Smart
Norton II
Commando Bob

I thought I'd leave the settler and movement to you. You have to defend the new town so I thought it best if it was your call about the timing of the placement.

It looks like the Dutch are going to fold relatively quickly. A bit surprising after all the worry we had over them. Still, better safe than sorry and there's still some fun to be had.

So we still get war happiness in despotism eh? Any way to force a declaration from a weaker AI and still retain rep?