Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[CommandoBob]

I think Cbob is still skipping.

Still skipping but watching, too.

 

[Bucephalus]

Norton, I believe you are 'up'.

 

[Norton II]

Got it; I'll look at the save tomorrow and post any thoughts I have. I won't be up much longer tonight.

 

[Bucephalus]

Norton:

As we are gearing up for war, you need to concentrate on preparations for that; it will probably fall to me to initiate hostilities, so here is my wish list:

I will require a minimum of 30 Cavs; this can be achieved by building Sammi's in all productive cities, then rushing each at 3 turns left - it costs about 160g each time.

Upgrading to Cavs (once we have Salt) is only 30g, but we will need 90g per upgrade for Pikes, so don't get involved in any expensive trades.

Half a dozen (Pikes) Muskets will suffice, but I will need a similar number of Combat Settlers, so rush some out of our less productive cities; this is a priority, above and beyond any other builds.

I do not require arty, this will be 'blitzkreig' warfare.

I can't remember if our deal for Iron will expire during your set, but Egypt now has none, so you may be able to strike a lucrative deal.

If you have any thoughts for us to consider you will need to be patient because it's my daughter's birthday, and I won't be on-line much in the next ten hours, although I dare say Phaedo will.

 

[Bucephalus]

One further thought; I've put a number of obsolete, and despensable units in Sapporo to bring down the flip-risk; one of the conseqences of trading away our Salt is that we lose our rep if it flips.

 

[Norton II]

Norton:

As we are gearing up for war, you need to concentrate on preparations for that; it will probably fall to me to initiate hostilities, so here is my wish list:

I will require a minimum of 30 Cavs; this can be achieved by building Sammi's in all productive cities, then rushing each at 3 turns left - it costs about 160g each time.

No problem, but I have one question: do we want our GA yet? If so, I'll keep a few sammis around.

Upgrading to Cavs (once we have Salt) is only 30g, but we will need 90g per upgrade for Pikes, so don't get involved in any expensive trades.

The only required tech we can trade for is medicine, which is both useless and a Greek monopoly. It's even less important in this game than in ordinary games since we can't build ToE (Phaedo didn't mention it explicitly in the beginning, but if building or capturing the GLib counts as doing research, then so does building ToE).

Half a dozen (Pikes) Muskets will suffice, but I will need a similar number of Combat Settlers, so rush some out of our less productive cities; this is a priority, above and beyond any other builds.

I can rush two each out of Arnhem and Ice Shelf, one out of Sapporo, and one out of Haarlem. Those are our least productive cities that are size 3 or above.

I do not require arty, this will be 'blitzkreig' warfare.

My favorite kind! I hardly ever build cannons anyway.

I can't remember if our deal for Iron will expire during your set, but Egypt now has none, so you may be able to strike a lucrative deal.

Still 12 turns left on the iron deal, unless the Celts declare on us for some reason.

One further thought; I've put a number of obsolete, and despensable units in Sapporo to bring down the flip-risk; one of the conseqences of trading away our Salt is that we lose our rep if it flips.

I knew about that, which is why I wanted a cathedral there--I might be willing to risk a flip otherwise. If we weren't going to war so soon, I might even suggest rushing a library! It should hold out during my turnset, though.

If you have any thoughts for us to consider you will need to be patient because it's my daughter's birthday, and I won't be on-line much in the next ten hours, although I dare say Phaedo will.

I think that covers everything, but I won't be playing until tomorrow anyway, just in case any of us thinks of anything else before then.

 

[Bucephalus]

I knew about that, which is why I wanted a cathedral there--I might be willing to risk a flip otherwise. If we weren't going to war so soon, I might even suggest rushing a library! It should hold out during my turnset, though.

Interestingly, the Cathedral made no difference; I seem to recall that overall culture, relative distance from the respective capitals, and garrisoned troops are the key factors.

This is borne out by the way the risk has diminished with each additional unit added.

We will be able to build Sammi's until we have our GA, so there is no need to keep them around; we need to discuss when to start our GA, but my own preference would be once we have Industrialisation.

 

[Norton II]

Interestingly, the Cathedral made no difference; I seem to recall that overall culture, relative distance from the respective capitals, and garrisoned troops are the key factors.

This is borne out by the way the risk has diminished with each additional unit added.
.

I think you're right, though the cathedral would have a very slight influence insofar as it increases our overall culture. I'm still a little fuzzy on how culture flips work.

 

[Phaedo]

I don't have an extremely strong understanding of flips either but as far as I can figure, even though it is a counter intuitive, individual city culture doesn't really matter. We placed the city on the edge of our cultural border (thus we knew that our empire's culture effects will be weak) and we cut into the pre-existing Celt cultural border (so we knew we would be under fairly heavy cultural pressure). The only immediate answer is stationing troops in the city.

At any rate, I think that if there is the possibility for pressure (shared borders for example) there is a ratio between the overall culture of your civ and that of the AI. I also think this is further mitigated by the rank of the nearest cities. I think it may be rank more than actual distance. The higher the rank, the lower the cultural influence. So even though a temple will expand cultural borders in a few turns, it doesn't add any more to our cultural than one in the capital would. It might also be that a Civs overall culture is spread equally over all of it's cities and work similarly to corruption which would explain why corrupt cities flip more easily.

 

[Norton II]

I'm on the first turn of my set, and our source of saltpeter has been exhausted!!! The closest source is near Hattusha. Our trading rep seems to be intact with everyone but the Celts, but we won't be able to build cavs now--no one has extra saltpeter. China has two sources within its territory, but one isn't hooked up (they're not trading it; we're the only civ they're trading with right now). I think we should continue preparing for war with the Celts and hope China hooks up its saltpeter, but I'd like to know what everyone else thinks before I continue.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm on the first turn of my set, and our source of saltpeter has been exhausted!!! The closest source is near Hattusha. Our trading rep seems to be intact with everyone but the Celts, but we won't be able to build cavs now--no one has extra saltpeter. China has two sources within its territory, but one isn't hooked up (they're not trading it; we're the only civ they're trading with right now). I think we should continue preparing for war with the Celts and hope China hooks up its saltpeter, but I'd like to know what everyone else thinks before I continue.

Merde!

How unlucky is that?

Continuing the military build up would seem the only option IMO, but unless we can get Salt from somewhere, we will need to re-think our short term strategy.

Hmm, time for some outside-the-box thinking.

There is one audacious option available to us; assuming we have a ROP with China (if not, establish one), put four workers in a galleon, then ship them over to China and hook up the damn Salt for them.

Unfortunately, I think that the only reason that our rep is still intact with the others is because they are all at war with the Celts; I suggest that you set up some token deals with everyone by buying lump-sum gold for gpt. - on-going deals may in some way help.

I have absolutely no idea if this will work, but we have nothing to lose by trying.

Also, I suggest that you garrison our two Northernmost cities with a few Pikes (keep the Sammi's back out of Cav range) - Brennus will not be a happy bunny.

 

[Bucephalus]

Norton, we also have a second option.

If you look SW of the former Egyptian city of 'Buto', you will see a source of Salt that is in no-man's land; ship over a worker, and build a colony - it will link to us through Greek harbours.

It won't last long, but if you build enough Sammi's, we only need it to last one turn for upgrades.

Put both options in to effect, and all may yet not be lost.

Edit: Don't forget to rush a Frigate for escort duty; although we're not at war, an unescorted Galleon will be vulnerable to Privateers.

 

[Norton II]

Both good ideas, but without saltpeter, we can't build frigates. I'll send one galleon to the Chinese saltpeter, that being the closest one. As for our rep, it looks like Egypt will still accept gpt from us but won't accept resources alone. They're the only ones at peace with the Celts other than us.

 

[Phaedo]

That does suck. Does China have Nav?

Those are interesting options Buce. let's hope they work.

Good luck Norton. No one can say this game isn't interesting.

 

[Norton II]

That does suck. Does China have Nav?

Those are interesting options Buce. let's hope they work.

Good luck Norton. No one can say this game isn't interesting.

China doesn't even have astronomy, but since we have magnetism, we can trade resources with them.

 

[Norton II]

Just fininshed; will post the writeup in a couple of hours. Basically, we're buying salt from China now (they roaded it themselves before we got there) and have 34 cavs, 8 muskets, and 4 combat settlers ready (one more settler will be built next turn, and the one in Sapporo will finish in 3 turns). I haven't made any tech trades other than selling banking to the Maya and the Chinese for a little gpt.

 

[Phaedo]

Nice work Norton! Sounds like you accomplished all your goals. And your Egypt experiment would indicate that our rep is still good too. Well done

 

[Norton II]

Here's the save: View attachment Rage_950_AD_Norton.SAV

Preflight:
-switch builds in Arnhem, Sapporo, and Ice Shelf to settlers
-put taxmen to work in Nagasaki and Kobe--gpt increases from 213 to 216
-switch Haarlem from pike to courthouse
-rush settler in Arnhem
IBT:
-Greece and Egypt sign peace
-renew RoP w/Egypt for 1 gpt and 11 gold (from them)
-Kagoshima samurai>samurai (5); Groningen pike>harbor (3);Arnhem settler>settler (30); WHB sammi>sammi (5)
-*&%#@#*&! Our saltpeter's gone!!!!
1:
-rush galleon in Amsterdam to take workers to China to hook up their saltpeter; rush sammi in Osaka; switch Green Fields and The Hague to sammis
-sell banking to China for music theory, 7 gpt, and 4 gold, and to Maya for printing press, 5 gpt, and 19 gold--might as well profit from our tech lead over them, and they might get more gpt to trade us if they can build banks
IBT:
-Celts and China sign peace
-renew RoP with China; let gems/silks trade with Celts lapse
-Amsterdam galleon>rax (3); Osaka sammi>sammi (5); Nagasaki rax>pike (5)
-Greeks build Magellan's in Ephesus
2:
-load galleon with slaves and send toward Chinese saltpeter
-make taxman in Tokyo to prevent riots
-rush sammi in Tokyo
IBT: Tokyo sammi>sammi (5); Edo rax>pike (5)
3:
-make taxman in Ice Shelf to prevent riots
-rush sammis in WHB, Kago, and Kyoto
IBT:
-renew RoP w/Maya
-Greeks and Dutch sign peace
-Kyoto, Kago, and WHB sammi>sammi (5); Groningen harbor>bank (20); Tobacco Farm bank>rax (2)
-Egypt starts Smith's, but too late--Greeks build Smith's in Athens and Newton's in Alberta (too bad none of us thought to set up a prebuild for Smith's; with all the banks we've built, it'd be very useful)
4: rush sammi in Osaka; rush settler in Ice Shelf
IBT:
-Dutch sign peace w/Maya and Celts; Maya and Celts sign peace with each other
-Amsterdam rax>sammi (9); Osaka sammi>sammi (5); IS settler>settler (15)
5:
-rush sammi in Tokyo; rush settler in Arnhem
-irrigate 2 grasslands around Kago so city can grow and use mountains
-no more war happiness from Dutch, so sign peace for 3 gpt and 7 gold
IBT: Izumo aqueduct>courthouse (27); Tokyo sammi>sammi (5); Arnhem settler>settler (30); TF rax>sammi (7)
6:
-Egypt has nationalism, Celts are in IA
-buy Egypt's WM for our WM and 126 gold--I want to know which salt China hasn't hooked up but can't trade maps w/China because neither of us has nav; it's the one farther away from us
-rush 5 sammis
IBT: Kyoto, Kago, and WHB sammi>sammi (5); Hague sammi>sammi (10); GF sammi>sammi (9); Kobe aqueduct>harbor (5); Naga pike>harbor (5)
7:
-rush sammi in Osaka
-Greece has steam power
-China hooks up salt! We buy for metallurgy and 1 gpt (the latter's not needed, but that way we'll be automatically prompted to renew in 20 turns)
-upgrade 29 sammis to cavs for 870 gold, 3 pikes to muskets for 270
IBT:
-Greeks and Celts sign peace
-Osaka sammi>sammi (5); Edo pike>aqueduct (17)
8: more upgrades
IBT:---
9: rush settler in Ice Shelf
IBT: IS settler>wealth
10: rush settler in Arnhem

Notes:
-We're strong compared to the Celts and only have 2 turns left on our iron deal with them. Maybe we should attack as soon as the deal runs out.
-Greece and Egypt "would never accept such a deal" when offered gpt for techs--except for navigation. Greece will also accept gpt and silks for its luxes. Is our rep ruined or not?

 

[TimBentley]

lurker's comment: Yes, your rep is ruined. You can make pure per-turn for per-turn deals with a ruined rep. Sometimes with a ruined rep 1gpt can be worth about 3 gold, as opposed to the usual 16 to 18 gold. For example Egypt wants more than 244gpt for something they probably value at about 1000g I guess.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, this game has just got a little harder.

Our rep is indeed ruined; it is recoverable, but not in a time scale that will be of any use to us.

We will still be able to pay gpt for resources, but 'hard goods' (techs) are now beyond our credit-worthiness.

So we now have three options for acquiring techs: Lump-sum cash, theft, and as part of a peace treaty.

The latter is an interesting option because it is the one exception to the rule; we can add gpt to our side of the treaty, even though there may be a tech on the other side.

Actually, I believe this is also the case with MA's.

This is something which we may be able to use to our (almost) immediate advantage, and affects our timing with our proposed assault on Brennus.

I need to study the save in detail first.