Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

I've had a good long look at the save, and I think it's time to make a decision regarding Brennus.

The bad news is that Nationalism is still valued too highly for us to get it as part of an Alliance with Hittites - 250gpt + silks is still 'doubtful'.

The good news is that I was right about the principle - we can still get gpt deals as part of a treaty.

I think our decision involves the following factors:

Do we wait until Brennus has Nationalism or not?

If we do, we would quickly be facing Rifles, though an immediate declaration would see 3 or 4 cities fall quickly, and with sufficient Cavs we could absorb the inevitable losses.

We would need to make a snap decision whether to ally with Hittites (assuming that Nationalism is then affordable), or bust-up Brennus and try to get it as part of a peace deal.

A further risk factor would be if Brennus makes peace with Hittites before he gets Nationalism; he has access to Salt and Horses (and we can't get a trade embargo for love nor money) so he would quickly build up enough Cavs to alter the balance of power.

If we decide that land for tax-farms is more important long-term, then now would be the time to go; Brennus has no reserves of offensive units (he's been at war for so long), and I believe he would fold like a pack of cards to a concerted Cav rush.

Either way, I think it's time to start building up our gold reserves; it is my belief that stealing is going to be the most cost-effective method of acquiring techs once we have Espionage, until then our options are limited - I'm not a fan of overseas war before RP's.

Taking all of this in to consideration, my own opinion is as follows:

I believe we should hold our nerve for the moment, continuing to build Sammi's for immediate upgrade.

However, we should be on Red Alert; the moment that Celts acquire Nationalism, I vote we go, with whatever deal we judge in our best interests.

Ditto if they make peace with Hittites - immediate declaration and attack, using Combat Settlers to maximise gains in the shortest possible time frame.

I would ignore Entremont; it has Sistine (a prime objective) so we can't raze it, and trying to keep it would be pointless - the flip-risk would be enormous.

I would say leave it until last, along with whichever city has JS Bachs.

Since we are down to three active players, I'd be happy with a simple majority if we can't make a concensus.
 
Since we are down to three active players, I'd be happy with a simple majority if we can't make a concensus.
I hope you are counting me as part of the three. :D I should be back and able to play by next Monday (April 16).

Celts and Peace with Hittites or Celts and Nationalism are the two triggers. Either one of those happen and we dogpile on the Celts, saving the wonder cities for last.

Do you have a feel of how far away those are?
 
I hope you are counting me as part of the three. :D I should be back and able to play by next Monday (April 16).

Celts and Peace with Hittites or Celts and Nationalism are the two triggers. Either one of those happen and we dogpile on the Celts, saving the wonder cities for last.

Do you have a feel of how far away those are?

Apologies CBob; I had read Team Smurtz' thread, and thought you were further delayed by family matters - great to have you back.

On reflection, a third trigger might be Nationalism becoming affordable from the Hittites as part of an alliance, which may happen when a couple of gpt deals end in 10 turns or so.

Other than that, it's a case of taking it one turn at a time, and make like a boy-scout (be prepared).
 
I agree with going to war as soon as the Celts either get nationalism or make peace with the Hittites. However, we also need to start saving cash for tech steals, so maybe we ought to build cavs outright instead of upgrading sammis.
 
maybe we ought to build cavs outright instead of upgrading sammis.

We're pulling in 250+gpt at present, with 70gpt still to come from completed deals; it only costs 30g per upgrade, and we're averaging 2 Sammi's per turn, so we will still be accumulating gold at a fair rate.

I agree that we need to save cash, but IMO upgraded Cavs are a necessary short term investment; bear in mind that our Salt deal is a limited one, which we cannot guarantee to be repeated - China is relatively weak, and could lose it's Salt (or harbour cities) anytime.

And if Celts get Rifles, we'll face higher casualty rates in a frontal attack, casualties that we will need to absorb.
 
@Phaedo:

There is a priority action that needs to be addressed pre-turn:

Currently, Gergovia cannot be reached in three moves - we need to road the desert tiles on our border in order to make it so; we have a stack of slaves nearby.

Also, I would position a Settler and Muskets right on the border with Camel-Dung, otherwise it would take two turns to position a Combat Settler if war kicks off.
 
I got it. I don't know if I will get a chance to play it tonight but I will at least be able to have closer look at the save and post some goals.
 
OK, the roading won't be a problem and I am clear on the triggers. We currently have 34 Cavs. First move would be to take those 2 southerly Celt cities. After that, the marshes are a bit of problem for war settlers to get to the West side. Having said that, his West is quite vulnerable and could get us gems as well. From there it it a short walk to the wine.

I also think we should continue with the plan to road China's other salt. We can do it under the ROP deadline and it would give us a chance to extend the deal.

Lugdunum has Bach's.

Here's a thought: If espionage is going to be our road to the stars, doesn't Commie give us more effective spies? After getting Brennus' land our empire would be quite big right? If we were going to go commie, we might want to keep Eboracum for the Secret Police HQ as it has Shakespeare's. It could be a big producer and would give us a nice culture boost. It would require getting rid of Brennus pretty quickly. As I said, just a thought.

So that's what I see at this point.
 
OK, the roading won't be a problem and I am clear on the triggers. We currently have 34 Cavs. First move would be to take those 2 southerly Celt cities. After that, the marshes are a bit of problem for war settlers to get to the West side. Having said that, his West is quite vulnerable and could get us gems as well. From there it it a short walk to the wine.

I also think we should continue with the plan to road China's other salt. We can do it under the ROP deadline and it would give us a chance to extend the deal.

Lugdunum has Bach's.

Here's a thought: If espionage is going to be our road to the stars, doesn't Commie give us more effective spies? After getting Brennus' land our empire would be quite big right? If we were going to go commie, we might want to keep Eboracum for the Secret Police HQ as it has Shakespeare's. It could be a big producer and would give us a nice culture boost. It would require getting rid of Brennus pretty quickly. As I said, just a thought.

So that's what I see at this point.

The trouble with Commie is the loss of the Commerce bonus, so although spies would be slightly more effective, we'd have less gold to spend; it also requires a lot of pre-planning - C'houses + Police Stations everywhere.

I would doubt that it would make economic sense.

Shakespeare's would stop producing Culture, once captured.

I concur with driving in to the Western Peninsular; we could annex it quite quickly, particularly if we took a risk and captured Lugdunum. I know it's flip risk would be high, but being isolated, it wouldn't be difficult to re-take, and with judicious use of Combat Settlers - and enough Cavs- I think Brennus could be finished inside 10 turns.

BTW, China already connected it's excess Salt.
 
Are we looking at the same save? 950AD right? The salt above Tsingtao doesn't look connected. There's no road there.

I didn't realize we wouldn't get any culture. As I said it was only a thought. After looking at the save again, if we are razing Eboracum, then clearing the East first is probably the way to go (I think that's what you meant). It's been a long day. Quick question, a city greater than 12 has a greater defensive bonus than a city of 10 right?
 
Are we looking at the same save? 950AD right? The salt above Tsingtao doesn't look connected. There's no road there.

I didn't realize we wouldn't get any culture. As I said it was only a thought. After looking at the save again, if we are razing Eboracum, then clearing the East first is probably the way to go (I think that's what you meant). It's been a long day. Quick question, a city greater than 12 has a greater defensive bonus than a city of 10 right?

The reason that you can't see the Salt is connected is because our WM pre-dates it's connection; if you trade WM's with China, you'll see it is.

Doh! I seem to have a mental blank regarding compass points - I did indeed mean East. :blush:

A city above size 12 is a Metro, and has a 100% defensive bonus.
 
It's the IBT after turn 7 and Brennus is demanding Iron. It's not one of the triggers but we don't want to be in a 20 turn deal with him. We have almost 50 Cavs half a dozen settlers and a bunch of muskets. I'm assuming we tell him to eff off.

Can't give a screenie or save as it is on the IBT
 
It's the IBT after turn 7 and Brennus is demanding Iron. It's not one of the triggers but we don't want to be in a 20 turn deal with him. We have almost 50 Cavs half a dozen settlers and a bunch of muskets. I'm assuming we tell him to eff off.

Can't give a screenie or save as it is on the IBT

He's almost certainly bluffing; if not, hit him hard.
 
Sorry for the delay I'm finally off.

Move slaves towards the desert
Take a tour of the empire. Mm a bit. Looked for 14, 10 or 7spt depending on the ability of the city fro Sammy Pumps.
Shuffled our Cavs to the border

IBT Murry offers a MPP after making one with the Dutch. Nat is still too expensive for us so nothing comes of it.

T1 960AD
Upgrade a Sammy. Move the workers to the desert tile.
Nothing doing on the Nationalism deal. Our Iron deal wiht the Celts and peace deal with Murry will run out next turn.

IBT Zzzz

T2 970AD
Upgrade a couple of Sammys. Still no one will give us Nat
Put all the units in Sapporo and the flip risk is now down to 0-0.9%

IBT Murry wants to continue peace. I think that's a good idea. We see a knight head North from Cameldung

T3 980AD
Some upgrades and troop movement.
Still no deals going.

IBT Netherlands get into the war with China. Egypt and Greece are in Anarchy. Both have Demo

T4 990AD
Upgrades and movement
No deals going

IBT Zzzz

T5 1000AD
Egypt is now Commie
No deals

IBT Zzzz

T6 1010AD
Greece goes commie.
Celt alliance, silks, 250gpt and 1278g (all we have) is close to a deal with Murray for Nat

IBT Zzzz

T7 1020AD
Still close with Murray

IBT Brennus demands Iron. We decline and he proves to be the punk that Buce pegged him for.

T8 1030AD
Still can't get Murry to bite on a deal.

IBT Zzzz

T9 1040AD
A bunch of deals will expire next turn but we will get 86gpt back so we should be able to buy Nat if I can't this rurn.
Still close on the trade but no cigar.

IBT We lost dyes and ivory

T10 1050AD
328gpt 2184 in the bank. And the event that we have all been waiting for.....
We get Nat from Murray for a MA, silks, 290gpt and 1167g. Pricey, but that's what we wanted and we are making 328gpt
We could get dyes and ivory form China as well, but our salt deal will run out next turn and we probably will want to renew. We have Physics and MT to give them.
Raze Camel dung (no losses)
Raze Gergovia (no losses)
Move a settler an muskets into Celt territory. Once the city is founded, Cavs can get to Eboracum in a turn.
There are a ton a Cavs fortified with full movement on the border.

We have 46 Cavs and are losing 30gpt to upkeep. I stopped some of the Sammy builds but kept cities that can build 5-turn cavs on them.

Also, most of our cities are going to riot with the lux loss. A turn of -gpt and high lux will keep them happy until we can get the luxes bcak from China.

38gpt and 1019 in the bank and I pretty sure Brennus' best units are LBs. It will be a cake walk.

Take it away Buce.

Spoiler :

TheIrishWar.jpg

 

Attachments

Initial observations:

Our deal for Salt expires in 7 turns (not 1).

Thee is a spare source of Salt in former Mayan territory; I think I can get a colony on it before our deal runs out.

We can get back China's lux's for Physics.

Greece will pay 32gpt for Silks.
 
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