Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

It was only them an a couple of cavs on the island. I didn't know about all their bombers until the second war. I was hoping to keep the cities. I though 2 armies would be enough to take out a couple of infantry. The first army was killed by bombers and the second was disbanded.
 
Guys,

I may be wrong, but it appears that there is a general misapprehension about what it is going to take to win this game.

It seems to me that there is this vague idea that we will need to put together a massive invasion force of Infantry, Tanks, Arty, Combat Settlers, etc..... the usual culprits, then somehow out-fight the Greek forces as we advance on their core, capturing or razing cities as we go...

Well there are good reasons why this will not happen, why it should not happen, and why it is totally unnecessary for it to happen.

Now we have a Spy, take a look at the Military Advisors screen; see how many units the Greeks have, before they have tanks or -worse still Modern Armour.

How big a stack do you think we'll need to be successful? How many transports to get them there?

We have about 10 reasonably productive cities; how long do you think it will take to muster those kind of numbers?

The numbers just don't add up; it's not going to happen.

And just suppose we somehow managed to make it happen; why should we?

What do have to gain from crippling Greece? Who else is going to do our research for us?

No, it's impracticle, it's undesirable - and completely unnecessary.

All that we require to win this game, is one source each of Uranium and Aluminium, and to deprive Greece of one or the other; it's as simple as that.

We would be very, very unlucky not to have a source of each; so all we need to do is deprive Greece of one of theirs.

And the simplest way to do this, is with as many Mech I. Armies as we can build.

Lets assume that they have a couple of sources of each resource; if we put 3 or 4 MI Armies on top of both sources of one kind of resource, with as big a stack of SAM's as we can muster, there is nothing that they can do.

The only threat to an Army is the Bomber; with enough SAM's that threat is eliminated - we just change to a non-representative Govt to kill any WW, go to Always War, and steal our way to the stars - Game Over.

For now, all we need is a few Bombers and a stack of Arty for homeland defence, keep building the Armies and Flak for upgrading, make sure we've got enough transports for when the time comes, and keep doing what we're doing to keep up with techs.

Once we buy/steal Rocketry and Fission, we just need a short period of peace to safely transport our troops over, and it's all systems go.

I'm not going to play this tonight; I want you all to think about this, because what you decide, makes a difference to what I build.

If you decide a massive invasion is the way to go, I'll stick with the Arty, the Infantry, Tanks when we get them....

If you trust my judgement - and when have I ever let you down(?) - I shall change to more appropriate builds.
 
I already rushed the Pentagon in Nagasaki. Sorry I never posted the second half of my set--I was a little frustrated about losing that part of my post, and Phaedo looked ready to play as it was. Nice set, BTW! And it was definitely the right decision to abandon the two islands; I was afraid I'd have to abandon Dutch Island at one point during my set.

@Buce: Agreed. Naturally, we'll still need enough units to defend against any invasion he'll mount, but that shouldn't be a problem. What government do you think we should revolt to? I was thinking monarchy: we don't want the population loss that comes with fascism, and our empire's not set up for communism. Also, we don't have either tech, and our money would be better spent on other techs.
 
Granted that not pulling the armies was a mistake, but I don't think it was a huge one. They were cav armies and obsolete. We can build more. The truth is, I had no idea that they would attract so much bombing. I didn't realize they were such magnetic targets. I thought they could hang out on the island and take care of the odd invaders that Alex would send. Chalk it up to inexperience and it's a lesson learned.

I never really expected a huge invasion of Greece. IN the event that we are denied a resource it will be necessary however (at least enough of an invasion to take the resource). Cities had been building infantry and I switched them to arty for a round as I sent so many to Willie's island. I still think it is a good idea to have arty around the homeland to harass the Greek Navy when it comes in range. Those bombing runs will impact our income quite a bit if we just let the boats sit off-shore.

As for governments, do you think we'll really need to change? If we let 20 turns go by while we send units over we'll start from 0 WW. If we can get air defense in cities, we should be able to minimize the bombing WW. For that matter, setting up a city on stolen resources would take away the "enemy territory" factor. Of course, it would also make the armies attackable. If we do change, I would guess that Monarch or Commie are our only real options. I don't really know Commie at all so I can't make a judgment between the two.
 
Granted that not pulling the armies was a mistake, but I don't think it was a huge one. They were cav armies and obsolete. We can build more. The truth is, I had no idea that they would attract so much bombing. I didn't realize they were such magnetic targets. I thought they could hang out on the island and take care of the odd invaders that Alex would send. Chalk it up to inexperience and it's a lesson learned.

Cav become obsolete, Cav Armies never so; tanks won't attack them, and - with 4 movement points - they are the best pillagers in the game.

Even allowing that you didn't know that they would attract the attention of Bombers, keeping them there was an error of judgement; why would we want to try and keep the island at all, much less at the expense of tying down such useful units. Still, as you say, put it down to inexperience.

My real concern was with switching Osaka from Army production, for Hoover's; that is wrong on so many levels, that I can't begin to understand your thinking.

Assuming for a moment that Hoover's has value to us (something I contest; it's only value would be to save upkeep on 10 or so CP's), why build it at the expense of three Armies, when we have other cities in which it could be built.

And I'm totally bemused by your assertion that "we have enough Armies for now"; Greece is nearly in the MA, and we have one Infantry Army.

Given that we can only build one every 7 turns, how can that be enough?

Also we don't yet even have AT; assuming that we get it at the next peace deal, it will be another period of war before we can get Electronics, and the Palace pre-build will complete in 10 turns.

We are in danger of moving Palace at a cost of 3 Armies.

I never really expected a huge invasion of Greece. IN the event that we are denied a resource it will be necessary however (at least enough of an invasion to take the resource).

Not so; all it will be necessary to do is to sit on whichever resource that we don't lack.

Remember, to build a SS part, we only need the resource for a split second, not throughout it's completion, so a temporary peace with Greece (in the manner of our recent deals) in which the resource forms part of the deal, is all we need.

Cities had been building infantry and I switched them to arty for a round as I sent so many to Willie's island. I still think it is a good idea to have arty around the homeland to harass the Greek Navy when it comes in range. Those bombing runs will impact our income quite a bit if we just let the boats sit off-shore.

I don't doubt the need for a round of Arty builds, to deal with infantry landings; the Bombers are coming from Carriers, and they are positioned off shore where our Arty won't touch them.

The only answer to Bombers is Flak, once we have Flight.

As for governments, do you think we'll really need to change? If we let 20 turns go by while we send units over we'll start from 0 WW.

I'm certain of it; we will have continuous war for the rest of the game, once we begin resource denial - we cannot let up for even one turn.

If we can get air defense in cities, we should be able to minimize the bombing WW. For that matter, setting up a city on stolen resources would take away the "enemy territory" factor. Of course, it would also make the armies attackable. If we do change, I would guess that Monarch or Commie are our only real options. I don't really know Commie at all so I can't make a judgment between the two.

Cities would be a magnet for tanks; fighting would be intense and constant, increasing WW even more quickly.

Neither do I think that we could hold a city - Greece can afford to support many hundreds of units.

Monarchy is the only real option; we would lose our commerce bonus (as we would with Commie) but retain our core production.
 
I've played for two hours, and haven't got past the pre-turn.

Having decided to use our Spy, we have managed to steal Combustion, Flight, Mass Production, Motorized Transport, Atomic Theory and Electronics.

Unfortunately, I've ran out of gold, so I can't steal whatever Greece got for it's free tech, but we are in the MA.

I'm going to wait until I've got a clearer head before I play more; I need to mm all of our best cities to optimize production of Arty, Flak, Bombers and Tanks.

Our days of absorbing endless bombing runs are nearly at an end.

Edit:

Greece has TOW Infantry, so their free tech was Rocketry; our next successful steal will show us where the Aluminium is.
 
Nice work Buce!

Rocketry will also give us our Mobile SAMs right? That pretty much gives us the units we need. So the next step is preparation for sitting on his resources.

A couple of questions:
Do we have uranium (we can see that with AT right)?
If we park an army and a stack of SAMs in Greek territory, will Alex still send his bombers there, or will he bypass them and go for bombing our land?
 
PM from Bucephalus
Bucephalus said:
Hey CBob,

Are you in a position to play a set yet, or are you still up to your neck in wallpaper and paint?

regards, Buce
I think I am going to have to become a lurker in this game.

The painting is done (mostly) and at a standstill for the next two weeks due to local elections (my wife works with the early voting in Tarrant county; I'm an election judge on election day).

Sadly, other commitments limit by playing time, even for the SG I started. (I've still 'Clean Sweep' tasks to finish, a high school reunion update to publish, and have to find time to be Turn Player for Team FREE in the Multi-Team Demo Game 2. In addition to being a husband and friend to my wife!)
 
Nice work Buce!

Rocketry will also give us our Mobile SAMs right? That pretty much gives us the units we need. So the next step is preparation for sitting on his resources.

I'm going to leave stealing Rocketry for as long as it takes him to talk; flak is cheaper to build, and we are going to need lots.

With everything that we are going to need (including maybe as many as 20 transports) I estimate a period of maybe 30 turns of peace. It all depends on how many of each resource we need to sit on.

A couple of questions:
Do we have uranium (we can see that with AT right)?
If we park an army and a stack of SAMs in Greek territory, will Alex still send his bombers there, or will he bypass them and go for bombing our land?

Uranium becomes visable with Fission; with luck, he's researching that now, another reason I want to wait until he'll talk before I steal again - I want to see what else he has otherwise there is a danger that I'd pay for a steal, only to get Amphibious Warfare.

He would bomb the Army, but since we need a period of peace to prepare, we'd simply be kicked out; besides, we couldn't safely transport anything, anywhere ATM - his navy is huge.

Once we know if he has Uranium and Aliminium, and where they are, we'll have a better idea of what we need to do.
 
I've just finished, but you'll have to be patient with me for the write up; so much has happened that it's going to take me as long as it did to play it.

Alex didn't give peace until turn 10.

There is much to discuss and much to plan.
 
This turned out be a very interesting set; I had an incredible run of luck with our Spy.

In the pre-turn (as mentioned previously) I managed to steal our way in to the MA; in turn 7, Alex began 'Manhattan' so I knew he had Fission.

I'd already determined that he had Rocketry as his free tech, so I once again put our Spy to work, making a successful steal of both.

The big news is that he has both resources - four Aluminium, and two Uranium.

Uniquely, in my experience, Alex refused to talk until turn 10; 15 turns of hissy fits from whan he DOW'ed in Phaedo's set.

Although, at first glance, Uranium seems the obvious target for resource denial, I should point out that two of his Aluminium deposits are on small islands - easily taken and held if we choose.

I'd have preferred it if we could have got computers (for MI) but with that exception, we have everything that we need to prepare for our planned tactic of denial.

Assuming that we are going to go with Uranium as our target, I estimate that 30 turns of preparation is required to put everything together.

During that time, if we cash rush Armies every third turn, we could assemble 12 Armies; I already have 42 SAM's built - I switched to mobilization and was able to crank out Flak at a fair rate, upgrading when I stole Rocketry.

I have set two cities on SAM production, which will give us the sixty that I've planned for.

All of our coastal cities are building transports - to move 60 units + 12 Armies is going to require 20 transports.

We must maintain peace now; Alex has a huge and powerful navy, and there is no way that we could get 20 transports over to Greece in a time of war.

To this end, I suggest that we disconnect all of our surplus lux's to prevent his demanding them; we can live with the occasional demand for our territory map and 100g.

And we can't risk provoking war with any more Spy missions.

We are making well over 1200 gpt; if we rush our Armies every third turn it will cost us circa 1100g, so we will accumulate about 2500g every three turns, or 25,000g in 30 turns.

This will be needed because once we have his resources covered (I'm thinking 6 Armies on top of 30 SAM's for each one) it will need to be AW; we cannot let up for a moment, so there will be no more 'free' techs - it will be theft all the way.

The reason I think so many Armies necessary is because inexplicably Alex didn't research Sanitation, so we can't get Battlefield Medicine; Armies do heal in enemy territory, but more slowly, and until our SAM's have done their business, we will come under sustained bombing.

If Armies are damaged sufficiently, they will be attacked.

So, to summarize: we build our forces in the numbers mentioned - more if we can make more.

We keep Alex peaceful, caving when necessary.

We transport our forces to Greece (hoping to whatever deity you believe in that Alex doesn't guess our intentions), and sit on his Uranium for the rest of the game.

In an ideal world I'd prefer to deprive him of Aluminium to ensure he doesn't get building MA's, but that would require a bit more preparation and risk.

We would need to simoultaneously hit his island sources as we land on the mainland; and we'd need to do it with overwhelming force because we'd only get one bite at the cherry - he has naval supremacy.

Of course, if we were successful, holding them would be a piece of cake; if we took along a Worker, and built an air-strip on top of the Aluminium, we could continually reinforce. It would need more planning, more units built, and more time, but it would be doable.

Whether it would be worth it is a matter for discussion and concensus.

My own opinion is that it's a risk too far.
 
Pre Turn:

Greece has 8 Carriers and enough Bombers to fill them; we can't sustain these constant bombing runs, so I'm going to try and steal to Flight, and get some Flak built.

First, I want to expose their Spy.

Spy exposed;

Now it's up to 007:

Successfully steal Combustion;
" " steal Flight;
" " steal Mass Production;
Failed attempt, but our man in Athens escapes undetected;
Successfully steal Motorized Transport;
" " steal Atomic Theory;

I'm on a roll, but we have only enough gold for one more attempt; do I risk it for Electronics?
I mentally flip a coin - successfully steal Electronics;

We are in the MA;
A look at our Military Advisor's screen tells me that Greece has TOW - so they drew Rocketry as their free tech.

Change a bunch of builds, mm for efficiency.
Use up nearly all our gold upgrading 36 Rifles.

Realise that our 10% lux is only keeping 5 cities Happy; mm for clowns, and drop slider to zero; we are now making 1200gpt.

Switch Palace build to Army.
Switch production in Breda and Dreft to walls; hurry for 36g each - we are nearly broke now.

Enter:

Turn 1)

Alex drops off troops at Amsterdam - shed loads following judging by the shipping off shore.

Osaka builds Army;
Join Worker to Osaka, swap tiles with Kagoshima, Army now in 7 (from 10);
Move Elite Rifles to Amsterdam for leader fishing; Surround Greek troops so they have nowhere else to go - I'm hoping that it will persuade them to attack Amsterdam.
Upgrade a Galleon in Arnhem, so I can reinforce the Island without risking shipping.
Artillery keeps Greeks red-lined there;
First flak builds - ironically, no bombing raids this turn.

Realise that we are only building military units - so I mobilize - I don't know why I didn't think of this before.
Pays off - Tokyo and Kagoshima can now do 1 turn Flak.

Turn 2)

Interesting - an intelligent move from the AI; now we have flak they are not bombing.
At Amsterdam, my ruse works; with nowhere to go, even red-lined units attack. More landed.
Alex still having a hissy fit, and continues to give me the silent treatment.

Turn 3)

Bombers hit Dreft, destroying the harbour; ship some flak there.
No more landings.

Turn 4)

Flak an immediate success - shoots down 4 Bombers.
Unfortunately WW just cranked up big time; lux at 30% to stop it - we need peace soon or it's a govt change.
Alex still won't talk though.

Turn 5)

Many landings at Breda; Move Infantry from the mainland, also more flak.
Alex will not talk.

Turn 6)

The assault on Breda is fierce, but we lose only one Infantry; hurry more walls.
Flak brings down 3 more Bombers.
Oddly, Alex is not building Tanks.

Turn 7)

Greece really wants Breda - more landings.
They now have Fission - they are building Manhattan Project - he clearly has Uranium.
Let's see how much;
Successfully steal Fission;
Alex has 2 sources - not too bad; We have 3.
Attempt to steal Rocketry - fail but Spy escapes undetected;
Successfully steal Rocketry; He has 4 sources of Aluminium - the good news is, two are on islands.
Still Alex won't talk.

Turn 8)

More carnage at Breda - I can't believe how many Elites have won without getting a MGL; still more land.
Has Alex gone to AW? he just refuses to talk.

Turn 9)

It's all happening at Breda - more fighting, more landings, still no MGL.Walls bombed at Breda; it won't hold out another turn, so it is abandoned; attempting to get defenders to Dreft.

Turn 10)

At last! Alex cries "enough!"; he offers peace, and he even gives 150g! Bizarre behavior - I thought I'd have to pay him.
Lux slider back to zero.
 
Sounds like a tough set. 15 turns of war! I wonder if that is because there are just 2 Civs in the game. Your plan is better than anything I can think of. Could you post the save when you get a chance? :)
 
lurker's comment: Nice job taking over the continent, you guys!
It's been looking like a great game so far. Keep it that way! :p

Also, a picture per turnset is nice too (if you have the time, of course). :)
 
Just looked at the save. We'll also need to keep Alex from getting the uranium on Dutch Island, so a couple of armies and some mobile SAMs should go there, too. For that matter, maybe we should rush a settler and build a city there before he sends over one of his settlers.
 
Got it, I'll play Saturday or Sunday. Is there anything I should keep in mind, other than rushing armies every third turn, keeping spare resources/luxes disconnected, and building SAMs and transports?

Edit: I'm up in Aabra01, so I won't be playing this game tomorrow. I'm willing to swap with the next person in line if anyone wants to play tomorrow.
 
Just looked at the save. We'll also need to keep Alex from getting the uranium on Dutch Island, so a couple of armies and some mobile SAMs should go there, too. For that matter, maybe we should rush a settler and build a city there before he sends over one of his settlers.

No need to send Armies.

I agree that we should rush a Settler and build a new city there, but as long as it is defended adequately, it will remain out of Greek hands.

Once the fleet sets sail we will not stop building; we can build enough Bombers and SAM's to keep the homeland safe.
 
G Is there anything I should keep in mind, other than rushing armies every third turn, keeping spare resources/luxes disconnected, and building SAMs and transports?

There is an Army waiting to be rushed on the pre-turn; all subsequent Armies should be rushed at the same stage, ie with 5 turns left to completion.

Builds will take care of themselves, just build previously built unit.

Switch an unimportant build (there are a number of part completed SAM's in Hittite teritory) to Settler, on the pre-turn, and place it on Dutch Island where indicated by the red cross on the screenie; if you place a unit on the blue cross, that will prevent Greece settling anywhere.

If Alex demands anything (most likely 100g + territory map), you should cave.

It would probably be a good idea to ship over a few Infantry to Dutch Island also; those Greek troops will not be going anywhere, and will be a nuisance when war starts.

It should be a fairly quick, uneventful set.

One thing to watch: if by any chance Alex re-declares on us, keep a careful eye on the military advisors screen; currently he has no marines, but if he builds even one you must make sure our important coastal cities are garrisoned. There are far too many coastal cities to cover them all, so prioritize the ones in Japan. Oh, and seek peace again ASAP.






Spoiler :
Dutch_Island.JPG
 
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