Phil/Indu

[ungy]

There has been a lot of talk that phi/indu is OP and therefore not available to the player because it is too strong.

I don't buy it.

1. As for the too strong part, I think most people think the incas and particularly the quecha are OP (and were so in vanilla). So what did firaxis do for warlords? HC goes from fin/agg to fin/indu --a nerf at high levels. BUT THE OP QUECHA KEEPS THE COMBAT1! Did the designers think the quecha w/o combat 1 is too weak? The inca also get a UB that is huge in the early game (culture with a granary). Is that anyone's idea of play balance?

Actually I think there's nothing at all wrong with OP civs--it's a game and the point is to have fun. If people want to play phi/indu the designers should include it--better business for them.

2. How strong is phi/indu anyway? In my book it's all about getting the pyramids and leveraging the SE. So how does indu help with the pyramids? Well obviously 50% to wonders is good. But it's not as good as 100% with stone (of course if you have stone that's 150%). You can also try an engineer sling with either the GW or the oracle-MC. With the GW strat, again indu is not as good as stone. The oracle is a different story, as even if you have marble it's not a cinch you can research masonry before starting oracle.

So the phi/indu leader is pretty much committed to going for pyramids or else it's not really that great at high levels. Also at high levels if you go for the pyramids you may end up with very little real estate.

So I would contend that it is a good combo since I agree that getting the pyramids rocks for a phil leader but I dispute the OP claim. Certainly a phi/indu civ w/o a good UU or UB is nowhere close to the incas and I would guess only a better than average civ.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Well, imagine the GP farm(s) of a philo/ind leader in the hands of a very good player/AI. A capable player could in theory lightbulb their way to supremacy/victory and leave the competition in their wake without too much trouble.

I don't know if such leadertraits should be assigned to a leader in Civ or not, but there's no doubt that it's a very, very powerful combo in the hands of someone who knows how to use them.

 

[Churchill's Hat]

It doesn't matter whether its OP, Firaxis thinks its OP and therefore it cannot be used.

 

[futurehermit]

Ind-Phil is too strong because of the synergy.

You dedicate your different cities to different gps. You build stonehenge/oracle and later the one that gives priests hammers in your prophet-farm. You build GW and hanging gardens and later hagia sophia in your engineer-farm. You build Parthenon and later sistine chapel, etc. in your artist-farm. You build Colossus and a later one in your merchant-farm. You build GL and later Univ of Sank in your scientist-farm. I pick these wonders specifically because I figure with an industrious-phil leader you could get all of them.

Here is how:

Chop stonehenge + oracle in 2nd city. No problem.

Chop GW and hanging gardens in capital (save a couple chops if possible) or 3rd city if low chops in capital. With GW ***no need to worry about barbs*** = you can build in peace. You get GW by beelining math after oracle techs.

Parthenon the AI almost always delays so you can build this one quite easily in your 3rd city. You get the sistine chapel easily with your first gp prophet lightbulbing theology.

Colossus you get by taking metal casting off the oracle. You put it in your 4th city, one on the coast. 4 cities can be a bit of a stretch early on, but the $$$ from the colossus plus the fact that you will be lightbulbing like crazy in a bit more than makes up for it in my estimation.

Great library in your 5th city is the only tricky one imo. It could be hard to come back to alphabet-lit after going for math, as well as get another city out, in order to chop this one out in time. I think prince or below it would be possible. On monarch I would call it situational. On emperor I would say that if you get a GE in time after your GP then use it on the GL in your capital and have a mixed GE/GS farm. Otherwise you have two options: Build it outright in your highest production city, preferably your capital because it will have high food; alternatively, if you have spare chops in your merchant city you could put it there GS/GM are good.

Or, if you are able to get out military units amongst all this building you could put the GL in an enemy capital if you can pull it off in time. Again, I would call this situational. If you do nab the GL one way or another your first GS bulbs phil allowing you the priest-hammer wonder easy.

Maybe all of these wonders together are a slight stretch, but I think you will see that it is perhaps not as crazy as it looks! Even with 4-5 cities early on, with proper lightbulbing (you can really pick your lightbulb path with this city specialization!!!) you can be at important military techs quickly and then can expand afterwards.

And if you have stone and/or marble, this whole operation becomes decidedly easier!!! Not to mention if you have stone you can make a play for the pyramids, which means you really can take a 5th early city, dropping science down to 0% and gun for the GL in your 5th city.

Sure, the terrain might not lend itself to this everytime, but even if you miss out on a couple of these wonders, you could still pick the ones you want based on the tech path you want to take and then run the appropriate specialists in combination with the wonders to really speed your way toward your goals, be they military or other wonders.

I bet on noble/prince I could build every wonder in the game and still win by domination with an ind/phil leader

It really would be op. Even if you only built 1 wonder and ran the appropriate specialist(s) to help you get to a key early tech very fast that could be game-breaking.

However, I'm going to contradict myself, lol, and say that I think it should be in the game anyways Just because I think all trait-combos should be in. It should just be offset by having fishing/hunting as starting techs and a less-than-stellar UU and UB. I am hoping to add the Canada mod post-BtS and change the three leaders to the three remaining trait combos, including Ind/Phil so that all trait combos are included

 

[sneaky]

In most cases great leader traits combination are effectively compensated by lesser UB's and UU's and civilization starting techs. I guess a well balanced civ with a leader with the Phil/Indu certainly is possible.

 

[obsolete]

My theory is they are putting a hold on the Ind/Phil and the other few missing combos for the last Civ release to milk.

A lot of newbs talk about how financial is so OP and nothing else stands up to it, yet I don't see Firaxis removing financial leaders from the pool. As for myself, I never care to use philosophical. And the only reason I would ever even think of using philosophical, is if I had an industrial trait to go along with it. Then I feel I can actually make something decent out of it.

Since even BTW hasn't incorporated this in yet, that means I will still avoid wasting my time with philosophical leaders. They are are not my cup of tea.

 

[scy12]

No trait combination can ever be too strong. Reason ? Flexible difficulty options.

 

[gettingfat]

1. Firaxis tend to make sure the game balance is right, and they have generally done a very good job. But for whatever reason I find they tend to have a bit of extra love for those civs that are no longer influential or even don't exist anymore in modern time. Inca, Mali and in BtS Mayan and maybe Ethiopian are all powerful or at least above average civs to play. IMHO I speculate there is some fear for being accused of discrimination for putting this type of civs down, and I believe they have overcompensated somewhat (this is just my conspiracy).

2. Phi/Ind can definitely be easily leveraged by experienced players. It's true getting stone/marble give you more advantage, but in how many games you start with stone? And hooking up to those resources need extra turns, so industrious trait is still very valuble for early wonder race.

Oracle-MC slingshot is not that difficult to pull off. A phi/ind speeds this up substantially by 1. Quick oracles, 2. quick forge, 3. quick GE points from the engineer specialist. This probably save you 20+ turns to get an early pyramid.

So the city with Great Pyramid + engineerer specialist will give you 10 GE points per turn. You can then use it for early GL in your low production/scientist city to get 4 scientist specialists (by this time you are running represention and this give you a whopping 24 beakers). This will generate a quick GS even you don't go Caste system. And then you can lightbulb all your way to liberalism. Cheap university after education further helps this. The fact that pulling off one gambit can give you such a huge advantage is more than slightly OP, it could be game-breaking.

And who say you always need great pyramid? This type of leader can go the religion route. Build a stonehench and tons of great priests popping out. In this way the holy city money + early theology will allow for an easy early war and expansion.

 

[scy12]

Ind-Phil is too strong because of the synergy.

You dedicate your different cities to different gps. You build stonehenge/oracle and later the one that gives priests hammers in your prophet-farm. You build GW and hanging gardens and later hagia sophia in your engineer-farm. You build Parthenon and later sistine chapel, etc. in your artist-farm. You build Colossus and a later one in your merchant-farm. You build GL and later Univ of Sank in your scientist-farm. I pick these wonders specifically because I figure with an industrious-phil leader you could get all of them.

Here is how:

Chop stonehenge + oracle in 2nd city. No problem.

Chop GW and hanging gardens in capital (save a couple chops if possible) or 3rd city if low chops in capital. With GW ***no need to worry about barbs*** = you can build in peace. You get GW by beelining math after oracle techs.

Parthenon the AI almost always delays so you can build this one quite easily in your 3rd city. You get the sistine chapel easily with your first gp prophet lightbulbing theology.

Colossus you get by taking metal casting off the oracle. You put it in your 4th city, one on the coast. 4 cities can be a bit of a stretch early on, but the $$$ from the colossus plus the fact that you will be lightbulbing like crazy in a bit more than makes up for it in my estimation.

Great library in your 5th city is the only tricky one imo. It could be hard to come back to alphabet-lit after going for math, as well as get another city out, in order to chop this one out in time. I think prince or below it would be possible. On monarch I would call it situational. On emperor I would say that if you get a GE in time after your GP then use it on the GL in your capital and have a mixed GE/GS farm. Otherwise you have two options: Build it outright in your highest production city, preferably your capital because it will have high food; alternatively, if you have spare chops in your merchant city you could put it there GS/GM are good.

Or, if you are able to get out military units amongst all this building you could put the GL in an enemy capital if you can pull it off in time. Again, I would call this situational. If you do nab the GL one way or another your first GS bulbs phil allowing you the priest-hammer wonder easy.

Maybe all of these wonders together are a slight stretch, but I think you will see that it is perhaps not as crazy as it looks! Even with 4-5 cities early on, with proper lightbulbing (you can really pick your lightbulb path with this city specialization!!!) you can be at important military techs quickly and then can expand afterwards.

And if you have stone and/or marble, this whole operation becomes decidedly easier!!! Not to mention if you have stone you can make a play for the pyramids, which means you really can take a 5th early city, dropping science down to 0% and gun for the GL in your 5th city.

Sure, the terrain might not lend itself to this everytime, but even if you miss out on a couple of these wonders, you could still pick the ones you want based on the tech path you want to take and then run the appropriate specialists in combination with the wonders to really speed your way toward your goals, be they military or other wonders.

I bet on noble/prince I could build every wonder in the game and still win by domination with an ind/phil leader

It really would be op. Even if you only built 1 wonder and ran the appropriate specialist(s) to help you get to a key early tech very fast that could be game-breaking.

However, I'm going to contradict myself, lol, and say that I think it should be in the game anyways Just because I think all trait-combos should be in. It should just be offset by having fishing/hunting as starting techs and a less-than-stellar UU and UB. I am hoping to add the Canada mod post-BtS and change the three leaders to the three remaining trait combos, including Ind/Phil so that all trait combos are included

I bet on noble/prince you could build every wonder in the game and still win by domination with an spiritual/phil ,spirt/industrious , industrious/expansive ,philosophical/creative leader.

 

[futurehermit]

Ok then, well with ind/phil I will say I could do it on monarch (I'm normally a monarch/emperor player)

 

[Gaius Octavius]

"I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again, and again..."

There is only one civ that could pass with an Industrious/Philosophical combo: America.

Everbody always complains about America being terrible because the UU and UB come so late that they're "practically worthless." While I disagree, I think this is the only reasonable choice given that America can't leverage its uniqueness until the Modern Age. And guess what? There is one American leader whom Ind/Phi would suit very well: Lincoln. Philosophical for his ideas, Industrious because that's what won the war for the North.

So I say put Ind/Phi in, but give it to America. It will make up for the general feelings of apathy most people have for this civ.

 

[obsolete]

I also can't understand how any combo of an Industrious leader could be considered over powered on the very hard levels. It's no secret people drop these leaders like a rock. So again, the OP excuse makes no sense to me on that. Though I may, squeeze an extra level out of an Industrial/Philosophical leader. This makes a Dead trait actually get a little bit of life somewhere.


Isn't that what firaxis should be striving for?

 

[Sisiutil]

In most cases great leader traits combination are effectively compensated by lesser UB's and UU's and civilization starting techs. I guess a well balanced civ with a leader with the Phil/Indu certainly is possible.

This is a good idea. I may give this a try in an off-line game. It's easy enough to modify the XML and give these traits to a leader of your choice.

In the regular game, Roosevelt of America would be a good candidate--he's already Industrious, his UU and UB also come late, and his starting techs are also relatively weak (Agriculture and Fishing). So the power of Ind/Phil would be balanced by his other characteristics.

An overall point from this: it is indeed relatively easy to modify the XML and make a leader Ind/Phil. Maybe some of us should give it a try and report back as to whether that does indeed make the leader overpowered.

 

[EmperorFool]

It should just be offset by having . . . a less-than-stellar UU and UB. I am hoping to add the Canada mod.

Hockey Player
Replaces Warrior
Double movement on Ice
Starts with Amphibious (only works when crossing river from or onto Ice)

Brewery
Replaces Granary
+1 Happiness for Wheat

 

[ungy]

I agree that the indu/phil combination is better at lower levels.

But if you know how to leverage these traits you are going to have little difficulty with low levels whatever your leader.

I still maintain that at immmortal or even emperor that civ w/o a useful uu or ub would not be that strong--not as good as any of the civs with a good early uu.

 

[yatta77]

Maybe some of us should give it a try and report back as to whether that does indeed make the leader overpowered.

I tried Phi/Ind in my mod at first, then I changed it to Phi/Cre. Phi/Ind is not balanced, and you notice that mostly on high levels playing a SE.

 

[ungy]

I tried Phi/Ind in my mod at first, then I changed it to Phi/Cre. Phi/Ind is not balanced, and you notice that mostly on high levels playing a SE.

Is a way I could try that?--I'm not too tech savvy

 

[yatta77]

Is a way I could try that?--I'm not too tech savvy

Sure
Do this way (I guess you know where you installed the game files on your HD):
1. Create a new folder under the "Mod" folder (be sure to be under "Warlord\Mod" if it's for warlord). Give it a name, example PhiIndMod. This will be the name of the Mod.
2. Create a (Warlord)\Mod\PhiIndMod\Assets folder
3. Create a (Warlord)\Mod\PhiIndMod\Assets\XML folder
4. Create a (Warlord)\Mod\PhiIndMod\Assets\XML\Civilizations folder
5. Copy the file CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml from:
- (Warlord)\Assets\XML\Civilizations folder
to...
- (Warlord)\Mod\PhiIndMod\Assets\XML\Civilizations folder

CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml is the file where the leaders are specified. You must change them in the file you copy, NOT THE ORIGINAL ONE!

6. Open the file you copied with the Notepad.

In this file there some blocks of text between

<LeaderHeadInfo> and </LeaderHeadInfo>

each block has the info about a single leader.

7. Search the block of the leader you want to edit the traits. (Use Find/Search in the top menu )

8 Look for the

<Traits> </Traits>

tags in that block and change the traits simply changing the existing traits with the ones you want (in this case Philosophic and Industrious).

9. Save the file.

10. Start the game -> go to advanced -> load mod -> load the PhiIndMod: it will restart the game. Then start a regular game choosing the leader you edited.

For more info about:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Civ:Ci...dding_the_Leader_-_XML.28Leader_Head_Infos.29
or check the Mod section of this forum.

I hope I remember everything right. I have not the Game installed on this PC... if it doesn't work let me know.

 

[ungy]

Yatta77: thanks--it worked. Now I'll try it out.

 

[yatta77]

Yatta77: thanks--it worked. Now I'll try it out.

Cool!