[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Josephias]

I've to say initially Phoenicia seems underwhelming, but maybe it is due to all the hype generated about them being the last reveal. It adds as well some of its habilities may sound repeating (Dock "Unique" was already done with England, protection of trade routes was alredy presented with Mali). Loyalty mechanics are nice and meet the expected path (but fail to meet the hype, as much more complex systems were envisaged). Other bonuses are just little bits that do not make enough to feel satisfied.

Barring the initial impresions, it seems it is quite a fine civ for expanders and forward-settlers ( i absolutely not belong to those kind of guys, promise ). It tweaks a bit the way you want to play this game and provides powerful tools. As some comented, the cothon 50% off settler production + the fact you always want to settle coastal for the loyalty bounus is the real power at expansión. Add for mid-late game the +50% ship production and insta-healing to shift the focus from "settle the coast" to "conquer the coast". The capital movement (see note below) is just an additional tool to reinforce the strategy. The additional trade routes and powerful government plaza, the writing eureka and the dirreme seem just minors to add additional flavour (altough the dirreme may be key to protect an extended early coastal expansión from barbarias). Main issue is possibly being forced to beeline celestial navigation for cothons (which is still a leaf thech -> *quick suggestion: link it to maths-> currency is arithmetics, but much geometry was derived for trying to figure how to read the sky - along with other landscape features*).

It seems the cothon has specific graphics from each buildings (from the screens and the video: bare cothon is just a wooden pier. Then you have the unique graphic for the lighthouse. Shipyard probably adds the round "plaza" building, and seaport Will introduce a rectangular extensión to the brick buildings. This is the second UD, after the Suguba, that we see that makes specific graphics for all buildings. Wonder if other unique district graphics will be modified in the same way.

I was expecting tanit as the symbol, but the Aleph is a nice touch. (Nd ys, phnc lphbt hs n vwls, -> vowels were a greek invention --> they had not that many consonants as the phoenicians, and had to found an use for the remaining symbols - more or less ).


Additional note, a bit off topic: on capital movement. It would be indeed a nice touch for the remaining civs, but I agree should be limited somehow. Thinking about it, the best idea I came with is: link it to a dark age (you can only do the movement in a dark age, and it can be done only once per dark age). Thematically, it makes sense (albeit exceptions, it is probably in dark ages where shifts of power in the empire may appear) - you may see it as the current leadership trying to embrace a new way of doing things and changing the power center as a symbol, or as a new dinasty based on a different city replacing the previous one, that fell in disgrace as part of the dark age omens. Gameplay wise, it mostly prevents you from using it offensively (this would still be Dido's special), while it may open you a hard dilema related to dark age loyalty pressure: ¿which part of your empire do you actually want to keep? (or just becomes a defensive tool to ensure you mantain loyalty trough your empire on a soft dark age). It would be also, as dark age policies and heroic ages a "bonus" you get only when you are struggling in other áreas.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I think I'll want to research sailing first, and go out looking for some trouble with my boats.

You'll be most likely starting out with the sailing tech boost too, after all.

 

[Siptah]

The free eureka for writing is puzzling. It's an almost useless ability. Maybe they didn't want them to have writing researched, since, obviously, that should go to Sumeria or Egypt, if it exists as an ability. (and by the way, Zauzich managed to trace every letter of the Phoenician alphabet back to a related hieroglyph quite some time ago, plus there's photo-sinaitic, and so the first alphabet prize doesn't go to Phoenicia - but "first" are rarely important in history, "lasting" is.)

I think Phoenicia is pretty fun to play, and I'm looking forward to play as Dido. They certainly are Kupe's nightmare who won't have much fun when Phoenicia is in the game. I guess Phoenicia is a bit of a one trick pony, as REX is the best route to take. But quickly founding a bunch of cities to flip others is quite a fun move. I do feel that choosing governors is a bit harder with Phoenicia, as you want Magnus, Reyna (buy Cothons) and Amani (more loyalty pressure) quickly. I hope that relocating the capital isn't too expensive and you might do it 3-4 times during a normal game to get the most out of it.

I like the look of the Cothon. It's the second district that makes buildings look unique as well (the Suguba does this, too iirc). Hopefully this was changed for older UDs as well.

I feel that the Bireme is a the most disappointing part - it looks cool, but feels somewhat uninspired otherwise.

And a really nice model!

 

[Prima Italia]

I am really hyped! Since I have only played civ as ROME, I cannot wait till I encounter Dido who has expanded quickly into areas I wanted and have to have extended war (or wars) to do them in.
Just for the historical parallels, of course.

Great to see a fellow like minded player. I have had the game since launch and the only civ I have played as is ROME as well. That might change in Gathering Storm...going to start a game as Phoenicia as well along with my ROME game.

 

[Leucarum]

Moving your capital to another continent has amazing synergy with the later game colony policies. Instantly supercharge your oldest and biggest cities simply by moving your capital off- continent and slotting the right cards.

That's a really interesting point. Dido... Why are you moving your capital to Antarctica? Oh...

 

[Stringer1313]

Thank God they did not make Dido white, unlike Civ 5.

Edit: removed reference to govt plaza having to be in capital

 

[Zaarin]

Well the Aztecs had a fairly prolific pictographic style, right?

Yes, but it was proto-writing.

And the Cree eventually got a really cool writing system

After contact, yes.

And the Inca had talking knots.

A theory that remains controversial--general academic consensus is that quipu was a mnemonic record keeping system, not a form of proto-writing. Many forms of writing have their roots in record keeping systems (including cuneiform), so perhaps given time it would have developed into writing, but...

So I'm willing to give them all passes, if only barely because I don't see much evidence for even much pictography in Maori culture.

In an alternate timeline where the Aztec can go into space, I'm okay with everyone having writing.

Nd ys, phnc lphbt hs n vwls

Interesting note about the Phoenician alphabet is that they didn't even use matres lectiones (consonant letters to be read as vowels) like Aramaic and Hebrew did until Neo-Punic (which lost its laryngeals so used het, alep, and ayin as vowel symbols--and sometimes he as well).

I like the look of the Cothon. It's the second district that makes buildings look unique as well (the Suguba does this, too iirc). Hopefully this was changed for older UDs as well.

Yes, previous UDs look positively disappointing now.

 

[PhilBowles]

Multiple notes

• We're not sure if they reworked the tech tree, and even if they didn't, the meta is changing in GS.
• Coastal cities are far more important. Optimal tech paths are not as set in stone anymore.
• You can still settle early on. You have tons of district production as soon as you have a Government Plaza, so use what other time you have to get those settlers out.
• After your initial base, you have a supercharged expansion strategy through the Cothon + Empire + Ancestral Hall. You can build Settlers like nobody else and can move them faster than anyone else. Grab those tiles like a maniac.
• Settle intelligently (not in another empire's core) til you can afford moving the capital. When you do so start expanding there til you have a solid base.

1. We've seen a reasonable amount of the tech tree and I've seen no evidence of any change. I also see no reason to expect that the basic gameplay requirement to develop tiles (and the technology to do so) and create units to defend against early aggression will have changed.
2. Coastal cities may be less suboptimal than before - what makes them especially important? I haven't seen the last two livestreams but don't recall anything from older ones that really matters.
3. Your production from the government plaza only applies to that city and only affects district production - which is going to be no faster than anyone else's since you have no advantages to help grow the city quickly. You aren't relying on one city slowly growing district capacity to get through your early game without building districts elsewhere.
4. I think you're overestimating the bonus. Empire+Hall is great for anyone, but investing early resources into a harbour offsets the production advantage you get from at least a couple of early settlers. The bonus helps you run to keep up, rather than getting you ahead.

The govt plaza bonus feels depressing because everytime you change a capital, presumably your old govt plaza is destroyed. Makes you never want to invest in one.

Unless anything has changed, there's no requirement to build the government plaza in the capital so changing capitals will have no effect on it at all.

 

[Zaarin]

Thank God they did not make Dido white, unlike Civ 5.

Levantines have a broad range of skintones. NB that Esau and David in the Bible are both described as redheads. Civ5 Dido was fine (her 1950s evening gown was more problematic); so is Civ6 Dido.

 

[ehecatzin]

That's a really interesting point. Dido... Why are you moving your capital to Antarctica? Oh...

It's going to put Spain in shame TBH, hope Phillip get a bit of a boost somewhere. I mean he still got the missions and religious boosts, but on the colonial department he is getting a bit underwhelming against both Maori and Phoenicia.

 

[Stringer1313]

So if the palace moves and it has a great work of writing that moves too? Good for expanding borders.

I somehow predict that they failed to code for this possibility, and that when you build a new palace, you lose the great work in the old one.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The free eureka for writing is puzzling. It's an almost useless ability.

I like the look of the Cothon. It's the second district that makes buildings look unique as well (the Suguba does this, too iirc). Hopefully this was changed for older UDs as well.

l!

I think the Writing Eureka is meant to be a nod to them inventing writing, but having Campuses from turn 1 would be too much.

I noticed on the blog that the later Harbor buildings are even Cothon themed. It's so cool.

 

[Ziad]

Just realized a few things about the capital movement.

Moving your capital doesn't just move the palace (presumably). It moves all bonuses a palace gets, including city states. That would mean that moving the capital doesn't just have loyalty bonuses. It can essentially allow you to develop a core set of cities significantly more than others. Frankly the capital often gets almost too efficient compared to the other settlements. This way you can spread the power a bit more.

Also, a few wonders have hilarious synergy with moving capitals. Casa de Contratación comes to mind.

Moved your palace? No problem. Here's +15% prod/gold/faith in your core cities on another continent.

Wew....

 

[Babarigo]

I have a feeling a lot of this is due to coastal cities being relatively weak in pre-GS. In GS the tables have flipped with much more significant bonuses to naval empires and Phoenicia is really powerful at maintaining a plethora of those cities irrespective of their location. Just don't be stupid and settle in the middle of another empire's core.

Also more direct bonuses are great but ultimately the most significant contributor to snowballing is city number. Phoenicia can drill settlers out like no other even when they scale really high in cost.

Could please you tell me more about the changes to coastal cities or point me to a thread where it has been discussed? Thanks.

 

[comatosedragon]

Hey, this seems like a cool civilization!
So (for me, anyway) 3 of the new civs (Inca, Hungary, Phoenicia) are civs that seem like I will enjoy playing as. Much better ratio than the new civs from Rise & Fall; IMHO.

 

[criZp]

OK, the Cothon granting 50% production towards settlers is sweet, but i'm not normally in a rush to build harbours. I might build a harder 80 or 90 turns into a game, sometimes even longer.

it's a naval civ, if you don't wanna play the naval game they obviously aren't for you.

 

[OzzyKP]

During the last livestream, the devs said in Twitch chat that we should check back next week for something very interesting (or something along those lines), regarding the music. My theory is that they put the Ottoman theme in this video to not reveal whatever it is that's "interesting"...

My money is on this:

 

[Temppu]

Imagine this: Coastal map, move your extra movement Settler with your navy to another continent, chop the Capital move project with your Ancestral Hall free Builder, capture all coastal cities without worrying about Loyalty, establish enough Loyalty to sustain these cities by chopping cows or Governors etc. Move a new Settler to a new continent, rinse and repeat.

Phoenicia seems a little bit gimmicky, but strong nonetheless, under right circumstances.

 

[criZp]

Seems like a really cool naval-based civ, this and inca are my favorite new ones. I wonder if biremes will be stronger than the longships.

 

[Ziad]

I wouldn't call it gimmicky. Their bonuses just rely on having coastal territory. Otherwise the lack of specific tile yields makes their cities relatively consistent. They don't need tundra like Russia, or forests like Maori, etc..

They're no more weaker on non-coastal maps than Norway or Indonesia. I'd argue they're better than other naval civs on Pangaea with their loyalty bonuses that apply ANYWHERE on a continent rather than just the coast.