[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

K I was thinking about it (rather than working of course) and I think this is how Phoenicia is played out.

You start the game focused on science and growth completely. You just beeline to Writing and get that Campus online immediately. The Eureka will help you with this regardless of your location.

Meanwhile you want the State Workforce tile ASAP in the capital. Build that Government Plaza as soon as possible.

You'll still want an early Settler or two. Don't just ignore settling. Get the Ancestral Hall immediately.

Use the Government Plaza to construct a Cothon in no time as soon as population permits.

Aim for Magnus governor bonuses for no population loss.

Now that you're set, start expanding like a maniac. Build settlers like crazy, grabbing any coastal tile that you can on in any continent where loyalty permits focusing mostly on your home continent at first and then shifting to others.

Build those Cothons in every city and then use that Cothon to build even more settlers to expand from there. If faced with enemy resistance, move your capital to promote settling in that location til you are solid in loyalty. The moving capital will also be useful for Palace yields which will supercharge your expansion. Later on use Reyna for free district purchases.

Use your navy to secure your holdings and threaten other civilizations with coastal cities. THAT will be your security net. With naval empires being a lot stronger in civilization, the appeal of coastal settling will increase for everyone, and you will always have the biggest baddest navy out there. Just don't engage in land wars. Threat of mutually assured destruction ftw

All your Cothons will provide additional trade routes. Use those to really reel in the income. Your navy will protect your trade routes (and I'm fairly certain the effect isn't lost on upgrade).

Early on you'll want that Free Inquiry. You'll likely have Cothons in every city, so it will be spectacularly powerful for Phoenicia giving you an additional source of unrivaled science strength.

The more I think about it, the more I'm impressed. They nailed Thalassocracy. Bonus yields here and there would be powerful, but that's not what builds great empires. Cities do. And Phoenicia can settle them safely and securely.

As long as you leverage your bonus to expansionism, you are set. Fail, and you are done for.

I love it. This is Phoenicia to a P. Maybe not uniquely suited to one victory type, but they can do anything and everything except land wars.

I'm ultra excited now. This is how I always played Dido in Civ5 anyway. Spam cities in the early game and use that early advantage to snowball.

I like this. I want to add that since all your cities will be coastal, you would be benefitted by getting naval ranged units early and building them for city defense since you can produce them quickly. Square rigging will be a Renaissance priority for you as well.

 

[Ziad]

• Only real disappointment is no reference to Tyrian purple (beyond Dido's wrong-colored outfit) or cedars of Lebanon.

Purple icon. Purple borders. Purple dress.

The references are there, they just didn't look up what color Tyrian Purple was

I love that Tyre is the founding city, as we predicted, but I did not see the capital change. They really went for a "city state" implementation with that moving Palace. (Imagine if it doesn't move...ooh boy).

 

[Ziad]

I like this. I want to add that since all your cities will be coastal, you would be benefitted by getting naval ranged units early and building them for city defense since you can produce them quickly. Square rigging will be a Renaissance priority for you as well.

Yea this civilization screams thalassocracy, just like I wanted. I mean I admit I would have liked some bonus tile yields somewhere but mass expansionism is effectively the same concept. You have more cities than the average civ so that's more trade routes and more yields overall. You also have more great person points from more districts.

So it's more of a horizontal power rather than vertical one. Many strong cities rather than one major city.

With a moving capital, they absolutely nailed the city state feel.

 

[Leathaface]

Moving your capital to another continent has amazing synergy with the later game colony policies. Instantly supercharge your oldest and biggest cities simply by moving your capital off- continent and slotting the right cards.

What do you mean? How does moving your capital late game make your "oldest and biggest cities" better?

Cothon gives you a science bonus.

In what way?

 

[Ziad]

What do you mean? How does moving your capital late game make your "oldest and biggest cities" better?



In what way?

It does not, but having more cities and a unique harbor incidentally leads to Free Inquiry being your go-to Golden Age bonus although Monumentalism can also be useful.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

What do you mean? How does moving your capital late game make your "oldest and biggest cities" better?

the colonial policies

 

[Onin]

After thinking about the FL for a bit, I think the Phoenicians fit well into the expansionist builder civ category. They aren’t necessarily an aggressive domination civ, like the Ottomans, but with settler perks, multiple trade route opportunities, and a district discount, they’d be a solid early expansion civ that could get their empire online faster than most.

I’m glad they went this route rather than another round of angry Hannibal and his elephants.

Definitely. It is also weird because of the way they want to get it started is sea based which isn't necessarily something players have to pay attention to now. Very different from Rome which is also an expansionist civ but I would imagine that if they are in game together they are likely to butt heads. I generally prefer civs that are about growth and expansion over ones with specific victory types in mind.

 

[Victoria]

t how much of a priority is the government plaza when you are a coastal civ with spread out districts

As a coastal player I can say 100% that Govt plaza is the first thing I would get. Basically it give +2 adjacency to the Cothon making it +4 without any sea creatures.
I would then be banging out ancestral hall so I can get 150% to settlers... this is scary stuff without monumentality to top it off.
The Bireme at strength 30! ... jesus wept, indeed it is a kupe killer. leave an undefended coastal city with 10 strength... you are +20 against it... just one ship will do in 2 attacks.
Moving will cost production but will allow the palace yields and will allow you to settle a -20 shore which no-one else can do cheaply. After T100 moving the capital will be in essence cheap.... in a dom game move it to a remote defensible location.
50% districts is nice.. and choppable under the new rules so..... a half priced encampment you can chop in for bonus will outstrip Japan in MP?
Protecting traders... well I guess the naval game is dull so at least ships doing nothing are doing something but it is meh. (all civs have a meh ability)
The speed of the Bireme is nasty too but it cannot traverse deep water... but it will defend against barb quads better, maybe even beat one with a first attack.
The 2 early trade routes are in fact quite a powerhouse of gold, especially if new water gold rules apply... once again, plaza first and a plaza inspiration will benefit from a 50% reduction in first district.
Do they think a writing eureka means anything at all? maybe their start location is on an island... that would make sense as a reason they have done it.

It's a naval civ but is that a surprise?
If they have not moved harbours out of that useless leaf tech then the Cothon is crap, the healing is nothing great.
The fact that sea levels rise is an instant nerf, not only do coastal civs have to build granaries and walls, they have to build coastal defences... its just rubbish.
To top it off this civ just nerfs Victoria and Harald hard.
As a civ is is far superior to them... just the settler bonus alone, let alone the speed of settling and the anti loyalty. The bireme speed is lost on upgrade? if not then bah.
Will it survive Genghy a nockin' on the door? nope. but by that time it will be a pretty big and advanced.
Its a fast starter, bigger size early with more gold and earlier districts so it is no slacker but neither is is a big conquerer. It is a golden classical civ though.

The question is ... will I play it?... hell yes! fast exploration, fairly guaranteed golden age, strength 30 costal city super spam of settlers, loads early gold... I am drooling. All of these things catapult your start.

 

[IvoryPavane]

You can move your capital and then take the policy card that gives 25% gold (and others I forget) to cities not on the capitals contient. Given their trade routes etc, it will be a lot of gold.

There may also be new policy cards that do similar things.

Additionally, GS may improve the base yields of coastal tiles. There are still a lot of unknowns

 

[pgm123]

I want them to change Writing to an actual free Technology ... How on Earth is this remotely useful unless you're on Island Plates.

The writing boost is the kind of thing where it's never usually a problem, but incredibly frustrating when it is. (I've purposefully held off from finishing writing with the assumption that I'll meet a civ any moment now). I'd like the Writing boost to be changed to "Interact with a civ that already has Writing." That's better thematically and makes writing slightly harder.

The big thing is I wish Phoenicia started with the boost towards Shipbuilding. Maybe Celestial Navigation too, but that should be easy for her.

Have they ever tweaked a civilization before release?

Yeah. Korea.

What do you mean? How does moving your capital late game make your "oldest and biggest cities" better?

In what way?

I was wrong. I didn't realize it was from Free Inquiry.

 

[PhilBowles]

Their early game city spam will be the source of those bonuses. They don't need them, unlike other civilizations with trade route count bonuses like Mali that struggle with expansionism or England that takes a while to take off in comparison.

I feel people aren't really grasping the strength of their early game snowballing.

I just don't that snowballing will exist. They have to choose a non-optimal tech path to get the Early Empire bonus for settlers in a few cities, whereupon those settlers have no advantages at all unless the best sites to colonise are easier to reach over water than by land. They just look all-in on an early settlement strategy that mostly looks as though it simply won't pan out, and even when it does is only about comparable with what other early settlement civs like the Maori are doing on top of all their other bonuses. Even the loyalty bonus has tension with this basic game plan since city spots reached over water will mostly not be on your continent.

Phoenicia also starts out with stronger, faster, cheaper, fast-healing ships that protect your sea trade routes. They can also use those ships to plunder other sea trade routes and capture coastal cities, so noone in their vicinity can benefit from sea trade.

When have you ever had sea trade routes plundered by barbarians (or been at war with overseas powers who, against all AI convention, actually possess naval units), or seen other civs using sea trade early enough in the game that galleys are still relevant? Even if you have, what does this achieve that a longship doesn't? Are you really just maintaining a fleet of biremes into the late game to protect against (very rare) plundering?

The writing boost is the kind of thing where it's never usually a problem, but incredibly frustrating when it is. (I've purposefully held off from finishing writing with the assumption that I'll meet a civ any moment now). I'd like the Writing boost to be changed to "Interact with a civ that already has Writing." That's better thematically and makes writing slightly harder.

I see two issues with the Writing boost: the first is that it's almost never relevant. The second, and more important, is that it will inspire people to go down the wrong tech path. Writing is not a tech you usually want among your first 3-4 techs, but I've already seen a suggestion that "Wow, you can rush writing and get libraries up quickly!" when what you want to be doing is getting builders, settlers and archers up first. Getting Writing more quickly doesn't change that and doesn't play into anything Phoenicia wants to be doing to make use of its other bonuses since the tech is off the Harbour tech path.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

It would be awesome flavor wise if they changed the Euraka for Writing to "A Civ you have met discovers writing, or you meet a Civ that has discovered writing".

 

[Ziad]

Yeah for balance they could make it so that you start with Writing and any civ you meet gets Writing as well.

I would love this actually, although I can see them avoiding it for obvious reasons

 

[kaspergm]

I think this civ would be a lot more fun if embarkment didn't come so ridiculously late. I mean, we research Sailing, but we can't put units in the water?

 

[thecrazyscot]

What do you mean? How does moving your capital late game make your "oldest and biggest cities" better?

The 2 colonial policy cards give +15% Growth and +25% Gold (iirc) to cities on a different continent from your original capital. Phoenicia can move their original capital so that their best cities are on a different continent from it. Ergo, more Citizens and boatloads of Gold.

 

[Ziad]

I just don't that snowballing will exist. They have to choose a non-optimal tech path to get the Early Empire bonus for settlers in a few cities, whereupon those settlers have no advantages at all unless the best sites to colonise are easier to reach over water than by land. They just look all-in on an early settlement strategy that mostly looks as though it simply won't pan out, and even when it does is only about comparable with what other early settlement civs like the Maori are doing on top of all their other bonuses. Even the loyalty bonus has tension with this basic game plan since city spots reached over water will mostly not be on your continent.

Multiple notes

• We're not sure if they reworked the tech tree, and even if they didn't, the meta is changing in GS. Coastal cities are far more important. Optimal tech paths are not as set in stone anymore.
• You can still settle early on. You have tons of district production as soon as you have a Government Plaza, so use what other time you have to get those settlers out.
• After your initial base, you have a supercharged expansion strategy through the Cothon + Empire + Ancestral Hall. You can build Settlers like nobody else and can move them faster than anyone else. Grab those tiles like a maniac.
• Settle intelligently (not in another empire's core) til you can afford moving the capital. When you do so start expanding there til you have a solid base.

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah for balance they could make it so that you start with Writing and any civ you meet gets Writing as well.

I would love this actually, although I can see them avoiding it for obvious reasons

Except the Maori, because of course they're the only civ in the game that was historically pre-literate. The Aztec, Mapuche, Inca, and Cree were well known for their extensive pre-Columbian literature, as were the Kongolese and Zulu. Nope, it's only the Maori who never had writing.

I think this civ would be a lot more fun if embarkment didn't come so ridiculously late. I mean, we research Sailing, but we can't put units in the water?

Yeah, I kind of expected them to say that Settlers can embark from the start.

 

[Jkchart]

So, my thoughts as usual:

• Dido's outfit is a little plain and it's the wrong shade of purple, but I love her overall design. I may kind of have a crush. What I could hear of her dialogue over Sarah sounded better than Civ5 Dido.
• I really love the design--a civ that can change it's original capital was not foreseen but very thematic.
• Cothon may beat out the Lavra for "prettiest unique district."
• She and Gitarja are not going to get along.
• Unfortunately Phoenicia's city-list appears to suffer from the Egypt problem.
• Only real disappointment is no reference to Tyrian purple (beyond Dido's wrong-colored outfit) or cedars of Lebanon.

I figured you and I would be on a similar page on this! Very excited to try her out.

 

[Ziad]

Perhaps they'll use the Phoenicia stream to show off the new coastal benefits and the science victory.

Edit:
You have been awarded a trophy: Addicted

Appropriately expected with Phoenicia in the game. Every game will be a new experience of mass settling. Aaaah

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Except the Maori, because of course they're the only civ in the game that was historically pre-literate. The Aztec, Mapuche, Inca, and Cree were well known for their extensive pre-Columbian literature, as were the Kongolese and Zulu. Nope, it's only the Maori who never had writing.


Yeah, I kind of expected them to say that Settlers can embark from the start.

Well the Aztecs had a fairly prolific pictographic style, right? And the Cree eventually got a really cool writing system, even if they didn't create it themselves. And the Inca had talking knots. And the Kongolese eventually got Mandombe.

So I'm willing to give them all passes, if only barely because I don't see much evidence for even much pictography in Maori culture.

But the Mapuche and Zulu...no excuse really.