Phoenicia

[Sikandar]

I wasn't suggesting making any goals. I was simply stating that settling a city on every continent as Phoenicia nearly impossible and very ahistorical, and would make for a very strange game.

See I like games that aren't bound by historical determinism.

Ahistorical developments are fine with me.

 

[Hippo8085]

Yes, but making the player have to play a civilization 1500 years after it actually fell is not.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

That's not what he was trying to do. Sources exist, according to which Hannibal only sought to restore the status quo between the cities. Carthage would also have had a difficult time trying to effectively control the much more populous Italy.
In more tribal areas in Spain or Africa they used a relatively loose system of alliances and tributaries with only a limited number of punic urban centres. Ruling Italy from Carthage might have been am impossible or at least economically very unprofitable enterprise.

Controlling Iberia and the Maghred would fit. Perhaps - if that is possible to do - something like having held Rome for at least a turn would be a suitable alternative to controlling Italy.

You have a good point about the organizational structure of the Carthaginians but:
Holding Rome for one turn? That's a terrible goal for gameplay and I believe many of the players here are more competent than that.

 

[Sikandar]

Yes, but making the player have to play a civilization 1500 years after it actually fell is not.

I wasn't referring to UHVs. I just don't see why it's bad if a player settles America as Phoenicia.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

UB: Cothon, replaces Harbor.
+1 , 1~2 Merchant slots.
+25% Trade Route yield (optional)

Basically it gives 1 Free Merchant if you're running City States. This will prevent it from being overpowered in late game (as straightforward +1 Trade Route or +1 Free Merchant will be).

UP:
-50% Mercenary hire and maintenance cost should be good. It's what makes Genoa so fun in RFCE. But it depends on how interesting your mercenary pool is. I suggest giving Carthage access to some unique mercenaries (effectively 2nd UUs).

Other UP Ideas:

- The Power of Blockade Runners: All Naval units start with Tactics (+30% Withdrawal Chance), can enter foreign waters, and Trade Routes can establish without OB.

 

[Hippo8085]

Why yes, of course. Its that we don't want our beautifully smart AIs doing that and getting unstable.

UB could give +150% money or +50% money per luxury resource from domestic trade routes. This would simulate profitable trade within the city states.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

UB: Cothon, replaces Harbor.
+1 , 1~2 Merchant slots.
+25% Trade Route yield (optional)

Basically it gives 1 Free Merchant if you're running City States. This will prevent it from being overpowered in late game (as straightforward +1 Trade Route or +1 Free Merchant will be).

Let's not make this conditional on one civic.
Bear in mind that Phoenicia is expected to create a very wide Mediterranean empire, and not a small one with little cities close to one another.
I also warned before that Phoenicia won't really find itself at peace very often so I doubt the usefulness of extra trade route yields.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't see why you should be at war with Greece or Egypt.

And Genoa has a mercenary UP in RFCE now? Why?

 

[archcapitalist]

Rome never fell by Carthage's hands, that's true, but I think you need to understand that
part of the emphasis of the modmod is to help civilizations achieve goals that they fell short of in real life,
such as Prussia's European domination goal. Controlling Italy would fall in line with that.

no i know that. i don't object to goals that weren't accomplished historically. but that doesn't mean all goals need to be ahistorical. pillaging the roman countryside could be a fun, historical goal.
and yeah, i do think goals that were not achieved by the civ in question should typiaclly be something they attempted to do or at least dreamed of. and shouldn't be that far away timewise from the real golden age of the civ

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I don't see why you should be at war with Greece or Egypt.

And Genoa has a mercenary UP in RFCE now? Why?

I've never been at war with Egypt.
Greece tends to DoW me, and Rome seems set on DoWing me most of the time as well.
The former two will typically get conquerors on me that I will need to prepare myself against.
Persia sometimes will, but that one isn't entirely a given and they don't get conquerors of course.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Bear in mind that Phoenicia is expected to create a very wide Mediterranean empire, and not a small one with little cities close to one another.

So did Greece before the Alexander, as well as the Italian maritime republics, which I thought is what the City States civic is all about. Even Netherlands start with it now, yes?

Without City States it's 1/2 of a Free Merchant, which I think is more balanced than 1 Free Merchant. Compare this with the Viking Trading Post (which is available much later compared to the Phoenician UB) if you will.

Carthage also tend to expand in areas which are poor in food (same areas as the Moors basically). So the +1 will come in handy even in your non-GP oriented cities.

I don't see why you should be at war with Greece or Egypt.

And Genoa has a mercenary UP in RFCE now? Why?

Doesn't it always? "The Power of Banking": -50% Mercenary cost.

Greece is my top ally. They're the only buffer Carthage have against Rome.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

"Build a Palace in Carthage" goal is very boring IMO. Why not start them in Carthage? After all Dido was a contemporary of the Trojan War (c. 1200 BCE).

DoC has really gone full circle....

Wasn't this the first change that was made from RFC:E/M?

 

[Leoreth]

I guess the first change was to rename some units

 

[Stazro]

You have a good point about the organizational structure of the Carthaginians but:
Holding Rome for one turn? That's a terrible goal for gameplay and I believe many of the players here are more competent than that.

Well, that's true, let's call it an "early idea".
It's just that on one hand I realize how taking Rome would be an appropriate goal, as it probably would have turned the 2nd Punic War around and thus assured Carthage prevailing. But on the other hand, I think remaining in control is too much.

I don't see why you should be at war with Greece or Egypt.

Sometimes these things just happen. In my latest phoenician game Egypt declared war on me, because I had a city in the Cyrenaica (for the dye) and they wanted it. Persia declared war on me, because I had a city in Phoenicia (for the dye) and they wanted it. Greece declared war on me, because I had a city in the Cyrenaica (for the dye) and they wanted it.
Looking at it this way, it's all the dye's fault...

Speaking of where to put cities, in my games (except for the badly failed first one) I refrained from settling Iberia, because it's harder to defend and it didn't contribute anything to victory. I believe that should change. I have already suggested that one goal could be securing a number of specific, different ressources and I still think it would be worth a try.

 

[Leoreth]

Technically, this has nothing to do with Phoenicia, but one internet cookie for the first who identifies the new feature in this screenshot:

Spoiler :

 

[alpav]

Pink City art XD

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Technically, this has nothing to do with Phoenicia, but one internet cookie for the first who identifies the new feature in this screenshot:

Spoiler :

You have access to Copper, even though you built a mine on top of an island, and not a fort.
I take it we don't have to Fort island resources anymore to get them?

Did I get it right?

 

[civ_king]

You have access to Copper, even though you built a mine on top of an island, and not a fort.
I take it we don't have to Fort island resources anymore to get them?

Did I get it right?

Yes!



Caribbean...

 

[Leoreth]

Pink City art XD

No cookie for you

But yeah, I've found an easy way to allow you to connect resources on all islands without building cities or forts on them. This applies to all Mediterranean and Caribbean resources and Western New Guinea.

I post this here because it will help Phoenicia a lot as well.

By the way, the UU, UB and UP changes are already committed. They also got additional starting techs (Animal Husbandry and Priesthood). I've just discovered some oddities with the Persian flip as well, which will be fixed soon (you see I haven't touched Phoenicia for a long time).

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Now what is the name of my Internet Cookie, Leoreth?