Phoenicia

[Bonci]

My only objection is that now 2 out of 3 UHV's are unhistorical (you could say 1.5 but still...)

Could the third condition be moved to an earlier date? Like one when the actual Phoenician civilization wasn't already wiped out from more than 300 years?

 

[BenZL43]

That's what I thought. In reality, elephants are not ideal war animal, are good only in their native residence, and African elephant is not as tame as Asian. By the way, how can you load an elephant (or two) onto a galley? Is ancient galley capable of carrying elephant?

What bugs me is not how good they are outside of their native habitat, but how in DoC a civilization can train it outside of their native habitat and abuse it.

There's reason why some forest in RFC to DoC are snowy and some others not... because the snowy forest can't stand outside of their snowy habitat

On the galley thing,
Yes, they are. Especially Carthaginian. They are known for excellent shipwright and I think 37 war elephant is nothing in weight compared to their total infantry etc

 

[civ_king]

What bugs me is not how good they are outside of their native habitat, but how in DoC a civilization can train it outside of their native habitat and abuse it.

There's reason why some forest in RFC to DoC are snowy and some others not... because the snowy forest can't stand outside of their snowy habitat

On the galley thing,
Yes, they are. Especially Carthaginian. They are known for excellent shipwright and I think 37 war elephant is nothing in weight compared to their total infantry etc

The snowy mountains are for aesthetics, imagine seeing them in Indonesia or non-snowy ones on tundra

 

[Stazro]

I'm not sure about restricting elephant recruitment. It's how Civ works: Whereever there is access to a resource, the unit can be build, because this access represents that the resource gets transported to every city that has it.
The example above shows that elephants sometime covered a lot of distance before they got into action. Another example is Emperor Claudius' campaign in Britain, when the Romans brought a single elephant with them in order to scare the 'barbarians', who had never seen something like it.


However, I suggest a city attack penalty for the UU. It should make it harder to take everything you lay your eyes on and along the way simulates Hannibal's inability to overcome stronger fortifications. Also, since the north african elephants are smaller than the asian ones it makes sense if they are weaker. The early availability should be advantage enough for Carthage's purposes.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I'm not sure about restricting elephant recruitment. It's how Civ works: Whereever there is access to a resource, the unit can be build, because this access represents that the resource gets transported to every city that has it.
The example above shows that elephants sometime covered a lot of distance before they got into action. Another example is Emperor Claudius' campaign in Britain, when the Romans brought a single elephant with them in order to scare the 'barbarians', who had never seen something like it.


However, I suggest a city attack penalty for the UU. It should make it harder to take everything you lay your eyes on and along the way simulates Hannibal's inability to overcome stronger fortifications. Also, since the north african elephants are smaller than the asian ones it makes sense if they are weaker. The early availability should be advantage enough for Carthage's purposes.

Agree with Stazro. Seriously, that's how Civ works. Restricting where we can't and can build the War Elephants based on latitude and longitude just sounds incredibly arbitrary.
If we are going to nerf it though, I think a straight-up STR reduction by maybe 1 or 2 like what iOnlySignIn proposed would be sufficient.

 

[strijder20]

Strength reduction? Elephants were incredible tools in warfare (when they didn't just run amock and killed their own army). I suggest we either make them more expensive to train or more expensive to maintain, or both. That way they are less OP too.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

That's what I thought. In reality, elephants are not ideal war animal, are good only in their native residence, and African elephant is not as tame as Asian. By the way, how can you load an elephant (or two) onto a galley? Is ancient galley capable of carrying elephant?

The only way to reply is to remind you of the most successful strategy in Civ IV history: Amphibious War Elephants.

Once you've studied the strategy, there is extra help if you're confused.

 

[strijder20]

Nonsense, everyone knows ice archers beat amphibious war elephants.

 

[youtien]

Tried a game with latest SVN(last night), dominated again, killed Egypt, Greece, Persia, Rome, got nearly all classical wonders except Parthenon then converted to Christianity. I end up with 12 cities, but UHV #2(Italy&Iberia) didn't trigger.

 

[Leoreth]

My only objection is that now 2 out of 3 UHV's are unhistorical (you could say 1.5 but still...)

Could the third condition be moved to an earlier date? Like one when the actual Phoenician civilization wasn't already wiped out from more than 300 years?

No

 

[Stazro]

It seems to me that now AI Phoenicia does rather well and AI Rome doesn't seem to be able to overpower them. I've loaded several Marathon starts in which Phoenicia survived - either as a vassal or independently - until it gets into the Arab/Moor crossfire.
It also benefits AI Rome's survival, because less conquest means less instability, as well as Ethiopia's UHV, because there rarely is an independent mediterranean city left to found catholicism before their spawn.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It seems to me that now AI Phoenicia does rather well and AI Rome doesn't seem to be able to overpower them. I've loaded several Marathon starts in which Phoenicia survived - either as a vassal or independently - until it gets into the Arab/Moor crossfire.
It also benefits AI Rome's survival, because less conquest means less instability, as well as Ethiopia's UHV, because there rarely is an independent mediterranean city left to found catholicism before their spawn.

Try running some Monarch + Normal starts.

It's been repeated before that the game is balanced for that setup specifically.

 

[Stazro]

Try running some Monarch + Normal starts.

It's been repeated before that the game is balanced for that setup specifically.

I wasn't implying anything else - the starts were not meant to be tests, since I'm actually playing the games. I just thought: "Hey, why don't I share this, someone might be interested."

 

[pompouslemur]

First off, I want to say great mod Leoreth! I've been playing it for about a year now, just decided to make a forum account now to ask some questions.

I've attempted 5 games as Phoenicia now, and Greece is constantly completing the Great Cothon not even 10 turns after founding Carthage. I'm just wondering if anyone else is getting this, or if it's just my bad luck. Do I have to destroy Greece to win the UHV or something?

 

[JiimBV]

First off, I want to say great mod Leoreth! I've been playing it for about a year now, just decided to make a forum account now to ask some questions.

I've attempted 5 games as Phoenicia now, and Greece is constantly completing the Great Cothon not even 10 turns after founding Carthage. I'm just wondering if anyone else is getting this, or if it's just my bad luck. Do I have to destroy Greece to win the UHV or something?

I'm getting the same thing, you're not alone. Apparently the UHV checker is broken anyhow, so I'm going to wait it out.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, Greece understandably is in love with the Great Cothon. You shouldn't have to attack them just to be the one that finally builds it. I'll address that soon.

As for the second goal, I really can't figure out why it doesn't check in 100 BC. A save where Italy and Iberia are controlled right before that would be of immense help.

 

[youtien]

Yeah, Greece understandably is in love with the Great Cothon. You shouldn't have to attack them just to be the one that finally builds it. I'll address that soon.

As for the second goal, I really can't figure out why it doesn't check in 100 BC. A save where Italy and Iberia are controlled right before that would be of immense help.

Here.

Greeks had completed GC in turn 90, so I reloaded and killed them in turn 87 or so.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks. Edit: Got it, will be fixed.

I think I'll give War Elephants -25% city attack to balance them. Being too strong against cities is their major problem, and it makes more sense to have them be effective on the open field only anyway. Come to think of it, +25% against cavalry should be enough as well.