Pie's Ancient Europe

[cmakk1012]

After the fact I realized another reason for my flagging economy—I was letting every city grow to max size. Is it generally better to keep more settlements or small cities than giant provincial cities?

 

[pie_at]

It's your choice. For every type of economy system, you need the correct civics. Besides, use the correct cults, where you have the most bonus resources. Think of trade routes! Use the new feature to trade with carts or vessels!
The first steps are hard, but from Currency, Markets, Harbors,... on, your empire will have a much better income.

And yes, putting lots of small sized cities and only some provincial cities between, is a good opportunity.

 

[Antigenes2]

Here is my effort to add some civs to the 18Civ+Barbs map. Try it if you want and let me know if you think anything needs changing. It just needs to be dropped into the Private maps folder.

PAE L5000BC 26 Civs+Barbs

New Civs are Britons, Picts (from Britons), Lusitanians (from Iberians), Etruscans, Lydians, Illyrians, Huns and Cimmerians (from Scythians).

My practice games show that Britons and Picts, and Iberians and Lusitanians are well-matched. Lydians have a good game. Illyrians can struggle a bit as the AI but sometimes crowd out the Greeks instead. The Etruscans generally struggle but a HI shouldn't have a problem. The Huns and Cimmerians will be strong in every game. They have the horse and plenty of room to expand in, and can create mighty empires.

 

[pie_at]

Great! Will be added into the PAE_Extras 40CIV folder!

 

[artyom]

My automated trade routes cancel, why is that? Is there like a trade guide? thanks

 

[pie_at]

They get autom. canceled when a city doesn't provide the trading bonus resource anymore (due to pillaging, spies, natural disasters, events).

Thx, I think I didn't mention that in the PAE Trade concept.

 

[artyom]

They get autom. canceled when a city doesn't provide the trading bonus resource anymore (due to pillaging, spies, natural disasters, events).

Thx, I think I didn't mention that in the PAE Trade concept.

I dont think that is the issue I am having. My specific issue that I have 50% of the time is lets say I tell a caravan that it buys goods in city A from Athens and then buys different goods from my city at city B in Pella. What often happens is, some caravans, once they get to city A (Athens) they sell the goods they had from pella and they buy goods from Athens, but then they need manual orders to move back to Pella. Once you give them orders to move back to Pella, they will move back to Pella and do everything by themselves in Pella, and then will come back to Athens but again you have to manually tell them to go back to Pella.

So essentially the issue is you have to manually tell your caravans to go back to the other city , but once you tell them to move to city B, they do everything as intended until they get back to city A again.

This does not happen to All my caravans/merchantmen, but happens to about half of them. Some routes are always working as intended, some are always not. I was thinking perhaps this could be due to you selling same good type via different caravans? Or due to other merchants trading in same city?

Note that when these caravans require manual move, they still have the 'cancel automatic trade button" so the trade route isnt cancelled, it just needs a manual move to continue

Also, does it matter which city is A and which is B? And does it matter how many caravans you send to or from one city?

Thanks

 

[pie_at]

Did you install the latest patch? I did fix that last month, where you just had to SKIP the unit and it goes on again.

No it doesn't matter which city, except the capitals give more bonus.
And doesn't matter how many caravans you send, but if the city provides the bonus resource, you gain less. (the city provides the goods for 3 turns)

 

[artyom]

Did you install the latest patch? I did fix that last month, where you just had to SKIP the unit and it goes on again.

Yes it seems that is the bug. I did install the patch, but perhaps incorrectly. Just to confirm on how to install the patch, I have to copy+replace all the folders in the patch folder (like assets and such) into main folder and then I have to do the same with the bug patch, correct?

 

[pie_at]

Yes. Replace the original files in the PAE/Assets folder with those from the patches. Replacing! There is a form of copying that allows you, to keep the old files and rename the others autom. to "xy copy.xls"

and I've replaced the bug fix patch in september! so it's newer than the original bug fix patch !

sorry for that, but modding has no end.... ;(

 

[artyom]

Yes. Replace the original files in the PAE/Assets folder with those from the patches. Replacing! There is a form of copying that allows you, to keep the old files and rename the others autom. to "xy copy.xls"

and I've replaced the bug fix patch in september! so it's newer than the original bug fix patch !

sorry for that, but modding has no end.... ;(

I reinstalled everything per your instructions (my initial installation was also correct). Yet the problem persists. I am attaching a save if you want to check it out. If you play a few turns you will notice the caravans constantly need to be moved/skipped. Note that this save is on the 26 civ map that someone uploaded

 

[artyom]

Here is my effort to add some civs to the 18Civ+Barbs map. Try it if you want and let me know if you think anything needs changing. It just needs to be dropped into the Private maps folder.

PAE L5000BC 26 Civs+Barbs

New Civs are Britons, Picts (from Britons), Lusitanians (from Iberians), Etruscans, Lydians, Illyrians, Huns and Cimmerians (from Scythians).

My practice games show that Britons and Picts, and Iberians and Lusitanians are well-matched. Lydians have a good game. Illyrians can struggle a bit as the AI but sometimes crowd out the Greeks instead. The Etruscans generally struggle but a HI shouldn't have a problem. The Huns and Cimmerians will be strong in every game. They have the horse and plenty of room to expand in, and can create mighty empires.

I played the map 4 times (romans, macedonians, 2x Germans) and seems pretty well-balanced to me and I play Emperor difficulty+epic speed. The only problem, as with any map, is sometimes some civs completely suck. This happened in my current Germans game where Gauls died, lusitanians still have only 1-2 cities as do the iberians, and basically this leaves a big void in western europe with a bunch of great cities for me, the player, to capture, which is why I terminated my current game because it will become too easy eventually.
I think lusitanians+Iberians+dacians could be slightly improved (dacians often get invaded by greeks/macedonians and other civs). Additionally, the Germans kind of suck as AI and fail to expand even though they have so many cities nearby to capture. I think this is because they have too many barbarian units roaming around. As you said, the Cimmerians and huns do very well every game, which I like. Middle east does well too, there is always some great powers there and I think that area is very well-balanced even though usually one or two civs usually get vanquished early on. All in all, I like the map and it is my favorite to play thus far

Also I think, perhaps, there should be a land-passage between English island and ireland, as well as between scandinavia and Denmark. Because without a land passage, only the player could potentially conquer+colonize that area. Also, I'd consider removing the Etruscans because if Rome does not manage to wipe them out early on, then Rome will never become an empire (only happened in 1 game where rome did not wipe them out)

 

[Antigenes2]

Thanks for playing the map. Most of the civs are unchanged from the 18civ+barb map and yes, this is a tough map for smaller AI civs. Tougher for them with the latest release I think because development seems a bit slower, and therefore pushing out the barbs is more difficult and takes longer. Some will succeed and some won't. It's certainly much harder for them than on the non-barb maps.

I would like to improve the Iberians (one of my favourite civs) and Lucitanians but I don't know how. Weakening the barb presence defeats the object of the map. The barbs are there to give the human player a tougher game with more to do, as well as give AI civs ready-made cities when they finally take them. The fact that some civs suck is both historically accurate and also an opportunity for the human player to succeed with a weaker civ. Making it easier for the small civs also makes it easier for the human playing them.

Most of my test games have seen the Etruscans getting crushed by the Romans, but sometimes it takes a bit longer. In my current game the Romans are huge and leading. Strangely, I've never seen them this strong on the 18civ+barbs map. On that map, there are 4 barb cities in North Italy and another on Corsica. I had to remove 2 of the North Italy ones and move the Corsicans to Sardinia just to give the Etruscans a chance and I think that dealing with the Etruscans and 2 barb cities is easier for the Romans than dealing with the original 4 barb cities. That's just my impression and I really haven't played enough to be certain.

Land bridges. It's still very difficult for the AI to take to the seas. The AI will colonise by ship, but usually only when they can't go anywhere else on land. I'm certain Ireland will eventually get colonised, when there is no longer any land in Britain. Attacking an area already colonised by another civ by sea is rare and hardly ever successful. It's a huge undertaking even for the HI (and was historically) and the AI just isn't up to it currently. A few land bridges could be an answer but I'd like other peoples' opinion because it obviously means cutting off a sea route and making an innacurate map (I remember MTW having some land bridges). It's a pity we don't have a tile that can be both a land and sea route. But maybe that's possible with a special tile improvement (like ships can sail through a village), e.g. a land tile with a fort added could pass ships, but would look odd.

 

[pie_at]

I reinstalled everything per your instructions (my initial installation was also correct). Yet the problem persists. I am attaching a save if you want to check it out. If you play a few turns you will notice the caravans constantly need to be moved/skipped. Note that this save is on the 26 civ map that someone uploaded

Thx! Fixed (again).

If you want to fix it yourself, you have to add a line into the doAutomateMerchant in file PAE_Trade.py after the pUnit.finishMoves() commmand:

            elif eBonusBuy in lCitySaleableGoods:
                #if iPlayer == iHumanPlayer: CyInterface().addMessage(iHumanPlayer, True, 10, "Mission eBonusBuy in lCitySaleable ", None, 2, None, ColorTypes(7), 0, 0, False, False)
                if eStoredBonus != eBonusBuy:
                    # if not already acquired / Wenn Bonus nicht bereits gekauft wurde
                    #if not pUnit.hasMoved():
                    doBuyBonus(pUnit, eBonusBuy, pCurrentCity.getOwner())
                    #CyInterface().addMessage(iHumanPlayer, True, 10, "Mission eStoredBonus != eBonusBuy SKIP", None, 2, None, ColorTypes(7), 0, 0, False, False)
                    #pUnit.getGroup().pushMission(MissionTypes.MISSION_SKIP, 0, 0, 0, True, False, MissionAITypes.NO_MISSIONAI, pUnit.plot(), pUnit)
                    pUnit.finishMoves()
                    pUnit.getGroup().pushMission(MissionTypes.MISSION_MOVE_TO, pNewCity.getX(), pNewCity.getY(), 1, False, False, MissionAITypes.NO_MISSIONAI, pUnit.plot(), pUnit)
                    return True

 

[Brosso B.]

Thanks for playing the map. Most of the civs are unchanged from the 18civ+barb map and yes, this is a tough map for smaller AI civs. Tougher for them with the latest release I think because development seems a bit slower, and therefore pushing out the barbs is more difficult and takes longer. Some will succeed and some won't. It's certainly much harder for them than on the non-barb maps....

Hey everyone, I played this mod a few years ago and probably started having another look at it earlier this year (I think after Kingdom Come: Deliverance came out, that got me nostalgic for RFC and other historical CIV mods).
I made some similar edits to the 18civ BARB map, and some minor changes to the python and XMLs back on patch 3, because I hated the idea of having to pay for arrows, so that kept me from upgrading to patch 4, though I've learnt to live with it now.
I mostly play on the 40civs + cities map these days.

One large change I made to the 18civ BARB cities map was to move Germany to Copenhagen and change the surrounding layout slightly, so that a barb city in Sweden is within the second or third cultural ring. This allowed the Germans to passively cross the straight automatically via culturally converting the city, at which point they could reinforce the city and take further cities by force or culturally. It also meant they were more or less ensured against being wiped out entirely (say by the scythians). In that patch it worked particularly well because they were able to found norse myth a lot earlier, giving them some early strong culture. Paying close attention to how cultural borders would flip barb cities made it easier to 'soft script' what was likely to happen automatically, so shuffling the barb cities around a bit to create deliberate cultural overlaps can make a huge difference.

That said, I recently had a 40civs+cities game where the Brittons took 2 cities in britanny amphibiously, although they were both taken back a few turns later . I've had civs take the Balearics a few times.

Regarding growth more generally, it makes a big difference how the starting resources for the civs are placed, because they are usually stuck at a single ring of culture for so long. This was a major reason for say the Iberians or Gauls flunking out early; not only would they usually get dog-piled by the barb units, but they might only have 1 sheep or deer on a hill tile to work with, and if that got squated on by barbs then they'd likely never recover, and probably die. Similarly, some civs are overpowered by their having some very choice resources in that first ring which gives them an exponential edge. This was the case with Parthia in 40civs, where I'm pretty sure they started with both millet and horses in the first ring, and the horse resource is very buffed in the recent patch.

Especially Gaul has the problem that they had poor food production which meant they almost always had an epidemic breakout even before they could progress past warriors. even if this didn't kill off most of their units, their capital would lost some ludicrous number of turns of growth. For this reason I changed the code slightly to make cities immune to starvation for the first 100 turns (maybe 120? I find that is roughly when the AI is able to build settlers). That might be a good blanket change simply to make up for the AI's inability to handle the mechanic and avoid it committing suicide so early in the game.

Just a couple of other comments about stuff I saw while lurking: I agree with Pie that grapes should be heavily restricted to asia, same with horses. I personally added millet for the berbers and to a couple of places in asia as well mainly because I thought the cultivation system was so kewl so I wanted to add even more variety. The only problem I found with this was that 90% of the time wine didn't spread far enough before someone discovered dythrambs and so the theatre of dionysus would never be built.
I personally also reworked dogs to be base strength 5, with 50% withdrawal chance, maybe 60% max damage. So you'd just use them to soften up units a bit further after peppering them with arrows.

p.s. I'll take a look at your map sooner or later

 

[pie_at]

Great Brosso!
So, if the maps are nicer to play than before, I'll replace the old ones.

About 100 turns health penalty protection for the AI: can't do that, because in scenarios you start with all consequences from begin on.
There is a population 3 protection for that.

Companion dogs: do you think, Str 5 is better? but they get killed all the time if they're so weak, isn't it? But to set the damage limit to eg 60 or 70, it could work to weaken them again, so they can successfully withdraw. And you still need archers to weaken more. good idea.

 

[artyom]

The huge 40 civ map becomes almost unplayable over time due to constant commissoned mercenary attacks. Playing as rome on immortal and epic speed, I get about 3 different mercenary attacks every 3 turns and I havent even gotten into the classical age. The mercenaries themseves aren't dangerous, what is making it impossible to play is the amount of micromanagement required each turn an. At this rate, I would imagine I'd need several hundred hours to complete a game. Which is fine, I like big long games, but not when they'e long simply due to the fact that you spend 90% of the time dealing with random spawned barbarian units. Only solution could be to switch to no religion to boost relations, but this is both ahistorical and very detrimental to happiness ( you get alot less happiness with no religion). I think it's poor design to be forced to do certain things in game simply because you don' want to get a headache micromanaging things. Note that at about 350 bc with only about 12 cities, I spend about 5 minutes each turn micromanaging stuff, 95% of all this management is due to commissioned mercenaries who destroy everything and who need constant attention. I can' even imagine what it'd be like further down the road when you might get like 5 mercenary attacks every turn

 

[Antigenes2]

Personally I don't mind the strength 6 dogs. After all, these aren't today's domestic dogs. These are savage hunting dogs. A pack of Irish wolfhounds or mastiffs, for instance, tearing into a squad of men, even if they were armoured, would be quite terrifying. Dogs are practically fearless and don't give up even when badly wounded.

 

[pie_at]

artyom: sorry but this is the way you play. The AI never sends mercenaries when they are pleased or even cautious to you. if you explore the whole map in a short time, you will meet lots of CIVs you don't need. All of them wants help from you. You negotiate all of them. So you will have war with all of them.

It's your turn to change your gameplay in making some friends. or to destroy their economy so that they can't effort mercenaries anymore.

You will see, if you start a new game and put your nose in your small area only (no senseless exploring), you will only have some neighbours to manage. Keep them on pleased or even cautious and you will have an easy gameplay. Conquer them if you want and start to interact with new unknown neighbours. Rise your empire step for step....

 

[Antigenes2]

@ artyom and others: I've made a few small changes to my 26 civ map. A couple of camels which seemed to be missing according to my research; one or two other resource changes. Nothing major. I've also added a land bridge between Denmark and Scandinavia on the second map as an experiment. Otherwise the maps are identical. I didn't add one between Britain and Ireland because the Britons (or Picts) have plenty of room and I've seen them both move into Ireland. So this is just to help the Gemanics.

There is a cottage on the land bridge plot. If it grows to a town and is inside cultural borders it will pass ships for the owner. That's the best I can do currently.