Plans for DoC 1.18

Leoreth, do you know if you'll keep the 3000 BC - 600 AD - 1700 AD setup on the new map, or will that be reconsidered (given that you're remaking the scenarios from scratch anyway)?
 
I will start with the 3000 BC scenario and getting it to work well before adding any additional scenarios. I have already changed the way scenarios are defined in a way that makes it a lot easier and sustainable to add more scenarios. I think I will eventually stick with 600 AD and 1700 AD as options but not necessarily limited to that.
 
Leo, since you are already at step 3 of your plans, do you need help with updating Python settler and war maps, areas, and UHV locations? I did some work on them sometime ago, and we can maybe use it as a starting point. It's not exactly scaled from those of the smaller map, but those should pretty much do, pending revisions. For the settler and war maps, I can set up a Google Sheets file if necessary. Areas.py stuff will perhaps need manual review, or I can screenshot them manually.
 
The way those maps function will change along the way, so I will need to do them from scratch.
 
I understand. Aside from actual map proposals and the CNM, are there any other areas of the mod where we can perhaps contribute?
 
Definitely later on in the process.
 
Dracosolon said:
I demand Leoreth to start working on a map for each one of these:

world-map-projections-1024x903.jpg
Click to expand...
From all the Projections you suggested, only Behrmann Projection looks to be true & suitable.
All other attached projections are either lieful or impractical to project a sphere to a rectangular grid.
Now I know only 3 true Projections of a sphere to a rectangle: Gall-Peters, Hobo-Dyer, Behrmann. They are pretty similar you probably won't even distinguish which of they was used is somebody made an Equal-Area Civ4 BTS RFC map based on which of them - the only difference are the "standard parallels", which mean x vs y axis scale, but the differences are slight. The worst & most lieful of all projections are Mercantor / Robinson where Greenland is the size of Africa. While in reality Africa is about 15 times bigger than Greenland in reality, Greenland is less than 1/3 of Australia size, Australia is 3/4 of Europe, Africa is roughly 2/3 the size of Asia, Africa is like 3 Europes, South America is like 2 Europes (Europe is till Ural mountains & Caucasus mountains, western europe is less than half of its area). Real areas of continents:

Oceania - 8,511,000km²
Europe - 10,180,000km²
Antarctica - 14,200,000km²
South America - 17,814,000km²
North America - 24,239,000km²
Africa - 30,244,000km²
Asia - 44,579,000km²

The ratio of number of tiles should be proportionate, except near-polar regions which are partially covered by ice caps on globe view thus last 15° like +90° to +75° & -75° to -90° latitudes should be cut because they go under polar ice caps on globe view (but we still see edges of Antarctica this way), thus widths must be about 2.2 heights of a map for Civilization game.
The only really important parameter when projecting a sphere on a globe is equal surface area because surface produce everything - shapes are very much distorted no matter how you project a sphere on a rectangle, it is simple impossible to have accurate shapes no matter what unless you have a globe. Just forget Mercator/Robinson forever as medieval eurocentric lie, only 1 modern accurate map is needed - the Equal-Area map (Gall-Peters or Hobo-Dyer or Behrmann), you probably won't even distinguish between them with resolution such small as 144*68 map, but Hobo-Dyer is the most preferable from 3 known true option, only one map, because Hobo-Dyer has widths more than 2 heights::​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo–Dyer_projection

Hobo–Dyer.jpg
 
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Why are we changing maps?


But really there is no true projection of a sphere to a rectangle and it is strange to call a projection "lieful".

Edit: wait, this isn't even the dumb ideas thread. Are you serious.
 
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trexeric said:
With lines like this:

I get the sense that Expansist doesn't actually care or know anything about DoC, and is just here to push his own map and the idea that there should be fewer European civilizations and more non-European civilizations.

Make your own modmod, Expansist.
Click to expand...
Yeah I engaged with him earlier on RFC forum and it seemed like at that point he didn't even know that there are more updated versions of RFC over what was shipped with Civ4. I guess our conversation might be a reason why he came here, as I suggested he should look for someone to collaborate since he clearly does not know how to mod himself.

Expansist - it is highly unlikely that someone already working on well developed modmod is going to just drop everything and adopt you ideas. If you are looking for collaborators on implementing your map as a RFC modmod or DoC modmodmod perhaps start a separate topic that is clearly titled with what is your intentions. It could happen that someone with skills you need will decide to take your map and use it for such project. TBH though, it is quite unlikely especially given attitude you present here and reality that moders typically mod what they want to mod and take stuff from audience only in so far as they themself want such contributions. DoC already has a new map, this will just not happen. Notice no one engages with your list of reasons, that's cos the only real reason that matters at this point is that Leoreth is happy with new map and we all here are excited to see new version of the modmod on it finished.
 
That poster is just very passionate, they're just a bit unfocused.

Basically they believe the game should reflect real world reasons behind why euros were able to colonize. They think the map should make europe smaller but give them a finance buff. Then make ecuatorial parts of the map larger and with more resources and larger populations etc etc.

I believe the mod has done a good job reflecting real world scenarios but that poster ignores gameplay mechanics and limitations for real globe map perfectionism
 
do you believe in flat earth theory? because that's the only way to make that work.
 
There would be incredible distortion around the poles. I guess it works if you are okay with that.
 
Leoreth said:
do you believe in flat earth theory? because that's the only way to make that work.
Click to expand...
No, Earth is a sphere with Equatorial radius slightly bigger than distance between poles, due to Earth rotation makes gravity at Equator slightly less than on poles. Project a lightbulb from lucid sphere on a wall - your polar areas tend to infinity, if you try to keep shapes distortion at poles is almost infinite... And the reason Earth is sphere - is exactly why equal-area projection (Hobo-Dyer or Gall-Peters or Behrmann) is the only true way to project a sphere on a rectangle for this & any other planet. Mars, Venus, Exoplanets, etc., any sphere - should be mapped using Equal-Area projections.
 
Leoreth said:
There would be incredible distortion around the poles. I guess it works if you are okay with that.
Click to expand...
Yes, perfect, that is exactly what we want - true proportion of surface areas, regardless of shapes x-y scaling!
 
Expansist said:
And what is wrong with the reasons on this video? I see no problem there, but I have other reasons - more about scientific accuracy & truth. If in reality Africa is about 15 times bigger than Greenland, but on Mercator projection they are almost same size - is it truth or lie? Surely lie. Surface area, number of tiles determine everything in reality & in Civilization game - x-y relative stretching don't matter, food population productivity wealth etc. depends on surface are, not on shapes.

There are very many reasons for using Equal-Area Hobo-Dyer Projection map for RFC based mods & modmods, the most important of which are:
1) Geophysical truth. Even if some areas have more & some have less density of Civilizations – this NOT a valid reason to lie about Physics, Geography, shape of a Planet, etc. What can be above truth & accuracy? Nothing is more important than scientific truth. Area is the most important parameter in any projection, because productivity & population numbers depend on area much more than on anything else. No matter how you project a sphere on a rectangle – shapes will be very much distorted no matter what, only Equal Surface Area is the measure of truth because area = population & productivity. Society that rejects scientific truth & base their education & decisions on lies – has no long-term future, because things happen NOT as they expect, thus they can’t plan realistically & control. Any worst truth is better than any sweetest lie.
2) Game mechanics & social dynamics truth. Even if some areas had less initial population density – they were colonized by somebody, which hugely determined real development rates of civilizations. The more colonies any empire had – the faster it grew rich & powerful. No isolated small society can develop fast – in fact, the whole history of the world teaches that the more isolated the smaller in numbers societies the slower they developed; while the more numerous & more exchanging knowledge / resources / DNA / etc. with other societies the faster they developed. Europe will never develop that fast if it was isolated from the rest of the world. The more colonies a country had (colonialism), or the more it exploited workforce & resources of other countries through banking system (neocolonialism) – the faster it grew rich. The smaller the system – the faster it degrades, the bigger the system – the more opportunities (workforce, resources, ideas, etc.) it has for further Expansion, this is the most fundamental law of chemistry, biology, ecology, sociology, etc. – the Law of Transformation of Quantity into Quality. The current RFC game deceits people by giving completely fundamentally false, UNscientific concepts of societies development dynamics & macro trends.
3) Find the missing civilizations. After making really true Equal-Area Projection map like Hobo-Dyer – you will see how many great civilizations you have missed worldwide, while trying to split same civilization many time in Europe because you drew it 3 times bigger than it is. You are confusing the terms of a Civilization & a Nation – these are significantly different things, just google the definitions. Civilization is mostly Cultural & Industrial notion, while Nation is mostly administrative notion. A Civilization might have many Nations, and an Nation might conquer many Civilization but sill be Civilizationally inhomogenous due to huge cultural difference despite being controlled by same administration, which is high risk of uprisings & rebellions. But if one Civilization fall apart into many nations – they are usually still friends / allies even if they live in different states, due to cultural similarity. Same Civilization in different epochs should be merged like in original RFC – like Sumer / Babylonia / Assyria is same Civilization in different times, Scythia / Ukraine / Russia / USSR is same civilization in different times, everything in Scandinavian peninsula, Denmark, Iceland, Greenland, etc. – is only 1 Civilization, the Vikings! Greece & Byzantium are same civilization, Roman Empire & Italy same, Holly Roman Empire & Germany are same Civ, etc.! Korea & Taiwan are independent / minor civs becoming parts of China, Canada is just Britain they were never really independent like USA, Mexico is just resurrected Aztecs even Mexican presidents used Aztec nationalism to identify Mexico a lot. So many Asian Civilizations are just one Mongol Empire culturally! You can even merge Egypt, Ethiopia, Nubia as one Nilotic Civilization, as they were quite similar culturally! But! You miss so many numerous & great Civilizations! Tupi Civilization that was almost all Brazil before European illegal immigrants came to Americas – they are culturally much different from Andean Civilizations Tawantinsuyu = Incan Empire, Chimor, Aymara, Wari, Tiwanaku, Chavin, Moche, Chico, Chinchorro, Paraiso, etc. in modern Peru, Valdivia & Chorrera in modern Ecuador conquered by Incas not long before Europeans came, Mapuche which was Andean Civilization that Incas couldn’t conquer till they were destroyed by Europeans but Mapuche Civilization resisted European invasion several centuries after the Incas were destroyed, Muisca is a north Andean (in modern Colombia) significant Civilization than Tawantinsuyu also never conquered. Amazonian rainforest where Tupi emerged was very different environment (Permaculture forest) than Andean hills & mountains where terrace agriculture with irrigation aqueducts was largely practiced, those were really different Civilizations types, like Aztec Civilization was very different Civilization from Iroquois & other plane civilization most of which were just minor civs small tribes, Guarani was another important civilization.
Gokomere – Mapungubwe – Great Zimbabwe – Monomutapa was the greatest cradle of Ancient Black African Civilizations starting first major Civilization around 300 AD, it controlled some of biggest gold producing region in the world was very rich had advanced agriculture fruits walls castles water wells aqueducts monuments like Stonehenge pottery spears cows horses/zebras a lot of livestock that they loaned for surrounding small tribes warchiefs to gain their loyalty, etc. – it much superpasses all the minimal criteria to be a major playable Civilization, it can just change names depending on paradigms & size in sequence Gokomere – Mapungubwe – Great Zimbabwe – Monomutapa – Zimbabwe Socialist Republic, it is quite comparable to Congo & Mali by complexity, science, technology, wealth!
Kilwa was another major coastal East African Superpower with very advances sailing (even Portuguese when came admitted that Kilwan people had superior navigation tools compared to Portugal at that time), spanning almost all East African Swahili coast, with a lot population wealth & technologies, with trade networks spanning up to Australia, finally recognized!
Merina in Madagaskar was another significant kingdom, that sold guns & gunpowder to Zulu Empire, and has destroyed some European colonies on Madagaskar.
Congo, Luba, Lunda Lozi was another important group of Civs, also finally recognized. Buganda, Rwanda, Burundi, Hutu & Tutsi, African Great Lakes were another major cradle of Civilizations. Zulu was latest major African empire that has shown incredible heroism discipline self-sacrifice espionage planning intelligence by beating the British, which Russian elites were very happy about, Zulu Empire was very rapidly expanding only British stopped them, now Zulu is South Africa, BRIKS member, another major Civilization separate form Great Zimbabwe & Kilwa.
a) For South America I would suggest 6 major playable Civilizations – Tawantinsuyu (Peru), Chorrera (Ecuador), Mapuche (Chile), Muisca (Colombia), Tupi (Brazil), Gerero (Argentina). Wari & Tiwanaku, Chimor & Aymara & Nazca – can be Minor Civs (Native Cities), or even better Tawantinsuyu can start much earlier as Wari empire, which then becomes Kingdom of Cuzco by adopting monarchy, & becomes Tawantinsuyu by having more than 4 cities – but Tawantinsuyu is so much more numerous & technologically advanced than other South American Civilizations, that Tawantinsuyu (Incan Empire self-name) inevitably conquers all South American Civilizations without European intervention (only destruction of Tawantinsuyu by Europeans stopped it from conquering all South America).
b) For North America – 4 major playable Civs, 3 Native: Maya, Aztecs, Iroquois – and 1 USA which was really separate Civilization culturally different from old european, later became world superpower. Other North American tribes were not united in anything big enough, thus were minor civ city-states.
c) For Africa – 11 major playable Civs: Gokomere/Mapungubwe/Great Zimbabwe/Monomutapa was greatest ancient Civilization, Kilwa was the greatest coastal trading & marine navigation empire, Congo was main source of European slave trade while Luba Lunda Lozi can be minor Civs, Zulu was very organized & rapidly expanding modern empire that is now South Africa in BRIKS, African Great Lakes cultural cradle should be represented by some Civ – Probably Hutu, Mali represents west African imperial system, Carthage & Egypt exist unarguably, also Ethiopia can be separate Civ, Punt / Somalia can be another Civ, and Merina in Madagascar is also part of Africa, this way there are no big empty regions all huge Africa has major playable Civilizations for each big region.
d) For Polynesia – 6 major playable Civs as there are so many dozens of islands added in Polynesia: Maori Civ starting in New Zealand, Fiji Civ, Tuamotu Civ, Vanuatu Civ, Hawaii Civ, Kiribati Civ. While Tonga, Avarua, Tuvaly, Tokelau, Niue, Rapa Nui, etc. can be minor Polynesian civs, and Moai Statues gets never destroyed in Rapa Nui by city conquest!
e) Indonesia might start much earlier than Majapahit – with Aji Saka & Hinduism. Indonesia can be 1 Civ or split in Javans & Malays.
f) Australia deserves to be a separate Civilization – it is a mixture of Britain, Netherlands, France, Muslims, Indonesians, Polynesians, etc., it was a country built by prisoners, climate is very different from Britain, there are significant cultural differences, it deserves separate Civ. While Canada is just Britain, it was never truly independent, its army is still Royal guard. Brazil is Portugal but may deserve a separate Civ because Brazil was ruling Portugal during significant time, and Brazil has largest Black population & Portuguese mixed a lot with Native Americans as there were too few Portuguese to populate Brazil fast enough before Spain & Netherlands compete with them, so Brazil should be a separate Civilization.
g) Many European & Asian civs that represent same civ in different epochs should be merged as mentioned above, then Equal Area Hobo-Dyer map is pretty well rather evenly populated with many different Civs in Southern Hemisphere.
4) Historic truth. Europe is 2nd poorest continent in natural resources (after Antarctica), 2nd smallest only Australia is smaller. Europeans dominated the world through banking system, liberal ideology causing political instabilities, a lot of scams & deceptions – but definitely European Civilizations were poorer in resources than others & tiny territories in Europe, but huge territories when they conquered colonies! Huge Roman Empire that united largest number of people & cruelly exploited slaves & colons workforce, gave technological & military advantage to its descendants fragments, which were colonial superpowers empires on which Sun never sets in previous century, but declined after WW2 & USSR Communists helping their colonies to overthrow their judo-christian slave masters. So, before the crusades Europe was technologically backward – Arabs who bred East & West science & technology, made Arabic the single language of science, generously funded Research & copied all valuable books thanks to trade roots incomes – were much more advanced than Europe before Crusades. But then Mongols, much more powerful army than all Europe, mutually annihilated with also very powerful Muslim Caliphate – and that is how Europeans looted technologies from more advanced Arabs, and also looted a lot wealth from crusades, which allowed later to loot whole world through the banking system. But later USSR Communists Atheists made rebellions & declarations of independence of European colonies in Africa both Americas Asia & all over the world from their judo-christian slave owners, then Europe & USSR mutually annihilated in WW2 while USA grew huge profits on WW2 by trading weapons & giving loans to both fighting sides. That is how Europe declined, USA became the hegemon of capitalist world after WW2 by just starting to print money out of nothing & with their military power increased in WW2 forcing everybody to agree, and then united capitalists worldwide by using zionist inflitrators espionage destroyed USSR from inside. This is how world superpowers changed – Europe was always small & never rich in resources, it rose because of certain political decisions by looting others & is now falling because of certain political decisions by encountering huge losses because of fighting against Communism instead of accepting Communism superpower like in USSR. Viking civilization was annihilated by peasants uprising – so much armies, population, productive capacities were lost in civil war that Vikings stopped to be an empire. China had a civil war caused by a woman close to emperor, in result of which from 60 million Chinese, only 20 millions were left. So many empires were destroyed by class warfare & civil wars inside the empires, without even strong external enemies… Or, how Greeks under Alexander the Great have beaten Persians – that was extremely unprobable, recreancy & stupidity of Darius III destroyed the greatest empire of that time which was beaten by much weaker army but smarter general… How Europeans conquered great Tawantinsuyu & Aztecs, much more powerful empires than themselves with such tiny force – was also very unprobable despite advantage in weapons as the disadvantage in numbers was so huge than weapons of next epoch won’t help, the main factors that lead tiny army of Europeans to destroy such huge magnificent & in many aspects (calendar, agriculture, construction, irrigation, roads, communications, etc.) scientifically & technologically more advanced civilizations that Europeans – were deceptions by which Europeans persuaded large armies of Native Americans to fight for them & against other Native Americans, religion of Native Americans that made them believe Europeans are gods which much weakened resistance, biological warfare used by Europeans, etc. I mean global historical process went so many times in low probability ways – how many things happened was so unprobable & required huge enormous efforts & intellect of certain people to make history go the way it actually happened… By changing sizes of parts of the world – you completely entirely falsify the whole perception & logic of historical processes, showing the civilizations rose due to factors that never existed & were lies while ignoring real major factors leading to rise of civilizations, while fall of Civilizations was also because of factors that are not realistically represented… Only now what we see the rapid rise of Black Africans & Muslims thanks to traditional patriarchal cultures enabling high birthrate is very natural, and some moderate rise of South Americans / LatinoAmericans & Oceanians number because of somewhat patriarchal cultures, while rapid demographic failure of Europe that we see today is just the natural consequence of Judaism & liberal ideology & matriarchy leading naturally highly probable to demographic collapse of societies adopting such ideologies, & demographic collapse is followed by collapse in everything else… Black Africa today is the most rapidly developing part of the world, thanks to its huge size, very fertile climate, wealth in natural resources, & high birthrate – that is the truth of today’s world, & any scientifically historically accurate map must show this obvious truth, not deviate history to fit medieval eurocentric lies!
The main point of RFC is putting Civs in their space-time context & representing the history accurately, as far as I remember. Not distorting the history & game mechanics just to please Europeans.
What is balance? Forces & accelerations & velocities are always in some balance every moment as we know from Physics, just there balance point might be not where your political interests are… If by balance you mean historic accuracy – it can be achieved by many other mechanisms: adjusting starting units / technologies / money / flipping areas, adjusting research & other coefficients depending on certain events, adjusting AI, etc. – lieing about world size is NOT needed for historic accuracy but just politically motivated deceit, as there are so many other methods to achieve historic accuracy even more accurate & better representing modern events & trends. People should know the truth, have realistic perception of world proportions & historical processes driving forces.
Click to expand...

Dear Leoreth,
Could you please make a playable version of Dawn of Civilizations using an Equal Area Projection map? For example a map, like this:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-equal-area-hobo-dyer-gall-peters-map.691472/
I don't care who gets the credit, totally OK if there are no mentions of me - I just want people to have adequate perception of world sizes proportion & historical process. Thank you for any help.
Best regards,
Expansist
 
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