play balancing the civs

[Ahriman]

Are there fields where we could add espionage flavor values to techs?

There are only a handful of techs that would be affected.

 

[God-Emperor]

Are there fields where we could add espionage flavor values to techs?

Sure. They already have flavor values, just not that one.

For example, Mysticism has

			<Flavors>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>8</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>8</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
			</Flavors>

and Arrakis Habitation has

			<Flavors>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
			</Flavors>

 

[Slvynn]

I think AH is more important for Growth flavor since it gives +1 water for WTs (its a new change , i dont think flavors values been changed since then)
I think all those values need serious revamping - that will amplify synergy tactics playing by AIs, and will make them both more different and more efficient, using their unique powers.

As for Espionage techs - sure - all those which enable more EPs and may be some their prequisites. I think we need to do some chart, simplified excel table - can you extract values from XML into simple Excel table?
That would be great if we'll be able to opbserve balance and layout of flavors in order to fix it.

 

[Ahriman]

Sure. They already have flavor values, just not that one.

Awesome. I'll add a redesign for the espionage flavor values, and then changing Margot to Espionage/Religion seems feasible.

I think AH is more important for Growth flavor since it gives +1 water for WTs

Any existing espionage values are completely unintended. They will be pure residuals from copy-pastes of various techs, and so should just be ignored and replaced. You are right that changing flavors will improve AI performance somewhat.

 

[Ahriman]

Updated tech flavor values (only espionage values changed).

 

[Ahriman]

Also on this; we should decide at what techs we want the Reverend Mother, Saboteur and face dancer, and apply espionage flavor appropriately.

I think Water of life is far too late for the Reverend Mother. I'd suggest either Law of Arrakis, Divine Mandate, or Academies.

 

[Slvynn]

Also i'd strip BG from their infiltrators.
I agreeon Academies.... they are more cool than regular spies
Also all spy UU should be added to Espionage Flavor list (atm there are only infiltrator

 

[Ahriman]

Also i'd strip BG from their infiltrators.

Why?

IMO they should have separate lists of actions. The Rev Mothers would have only the cultural/political/diplomatic ones, and the infiltrator would be normal.

Particularly if the RMothers don't come until a midgame tech like Academies.

 

[Slvynn]

MM ok you right
Whew thats pretty big list here we found of things that need to be done
lets make some list then

1. Culture Rings fix (V)
2. KH line fix it comes too early and too powerfull . Timing can remain but power is to be fixed, suggestion change 25% to 15%. (Ahriman please say what you think about this)
3. Removal of convert city operation, x5 cost for Anarchy.
4. RM to Academies. Some of inflitrator actions should be disabled?
5. Espionage flavor for certain techs (V)
6. Esp flavor to Margot leader.
7. Fixing units and buildings for Esp flavor.
8. Checking other flavors for them being up to date, including values (techs, units, buildings - extensive work - request to make some automated excel table - is it possible?)
9. MAking new 3 leaders (Goya, Vernius, Vidal) different from ones they were copied from- including flavor and synergy observation.
10. Some solution for Saboteur Sabotage.

 

[Ahriman]

Here is 1 (attached) with your versions. I'm not convinced that the values aren't too high (and thus cultural expansion too weak), but I'm willing to try them.

2. I have no particular strong feelings either way. I have no object to 15% for the level 1. Higher levels might also need to be slightly toned down.

3 and 4 sound fine.

5. Values for 5 were in previous post, I'm not sure which file they need to go into.

6. Attached leaderhead file with Margot Fenring changed from Growth to Espionage.

8. The other flavor values should be the ones from the table; David did that ~3 patches ago.

9. I can give values for these (changing one value or the other), but we should first discuss : What is the personality variation we should be aiming for with each of these?
Ie how should Vernius differ from Malky? I don't remember anything about Malky's personality.
How should Goya differ from Scytale?
[Maybe we should assign the current AI values to Vernius, and get new ones for Malky - similarly for Goya current values vs new ones for scytale?]

 

[davidlallen]

MM ok you right
Whew thats pretty big list here we found of things that need to be done
lets make some list then

1. Culture Rings fix (V)...

Thanks for all of this feedback. Please note we already have a method for tracking lists of many issues. I have posted the updated issue list onto the incremental patch discussion thread. It is helpful to use issue numbers like SLxx. I can search for these and make sure everything either gets fixed, or gets added into the issue sheet. Random comments throughout many different threads may get lost.

I encourage you to make patches with changes. But, please use the incremental patch thread to coordinate. We have had several periods of active development by many people, and there is always confusion about which patch is compatible with which other patch.

 

[davidlallen]

Updated tech flavor values (only espionage values changed).

Previously, I shoved all of these into techs/civ4techinfos.xml with a special purpose script. If you have changed only a few values, the best approach may be to edit that file directly. Please compare your previous spreadsheet against the techinfos file to see how the format works.

 

[Ahriman]

f you have changed only a few values, the best approach may be to edit that file directly. Please compare your previous spreadsheet against the techinfos file to see how the format works.

Scripted version looked fine.

Updated version with espionage flavors attached (same as Excel sheet above, except added to Academies not Water of Life, as we move the RM earlier).

 

[davidlallen]

1. Culture Rings fix (V)
2. KH line fix it comes too early and too powerfull . Timing can remain but power is to be fixed, suggestion change 25% to 15%. (Ahriman please say what you think about this)
3. Removal of convert city operation, x5 cost for Anarchy.
4. RM to Academies. Some of inflitrator actions should be disabled?
5. Espionage flavor for certain techs (V)
6. Esp flavor to Margot leader.
7. Fixing units and buildings for Esp flavor.
8. Checking other flavors for them being up to date, including values (techs, units, buildings - extensive work - request to make some automated excel table - is it possible?)
9. MAking new 3 leaders (Goya, Vernius, Vidal) different from ones they were copied from- including flavor and synergy observation.
10. Some solution for Saboteur Sabotage.

I think parts of this conversation stalled. Here are my replies.

1,2,4,5,6 will be done for 1.7. Thank you Ahriman for the files.

3. 5x anarchy cost is fine. Before I remove "convert city", I will incorporate your previous suggestion: 10x cost, -10% per pop, cannot convert capitol. If that still seems too powerful then I will remove it in a later version.

7,8. I think the tech flavors are up to date as shown in Ahriman's spreadsheet. Please comment on the table. For unit flavors, vanilla does not use this very much and neither does DW. Each Great Person has a flavor with value 1, and all spies have a flavor with value 1. Do you think unit flavors are important?

For building flavors, this is a large project. I will pull out the existing flavors into a spreadsheet. Then you / Ahriman should agree on values in the sheet and update it. Then I will push it into the buildinginfo file. However, since Deliverator is redoing many buildings, I will wait until after he sends the new files to start this. I assign issue number DA174 for this.

9. This discussion stalled. If you / Ahriman put new AI values into his sheet, I will push it into the leaderheadinfos file. I have already assigned issue number DA155 for this.

10. I agree Sabotage doesn't do anything yet. I have already assigned issue number DA165 for this.

 

[Ahriman]

Good collection. I think for 9 we should try to discuss how we think these guys should actually be different. I don't know who Goya is, and I've forgotten what Malky is like (the old Ix values I created probably better suited Vernius). Prad I can do.
Then I will create values in an Excel sheet.

 

[davidlallen]

I think for 9 we should try to discuss how we think these guys should actually be different.

I don't think we can get much insight from the books on these guys. A different way to look at it is, what personalities are "missing" from the game today? Maybe there are vanilla leader personalities which are interesting, and we haven't put them into DW yet. I am not an expert on the vanilla personalities.

 

[Ahriman]

Its more useful for me to come up with a few adjectives of personality - or at least how they should differ from the other leaders in their faction.

So for example, I made the Exectrix more militaristic than Roma Atani. And I made Shaddam brash and arrogant, while Irulan was kinda meek and diplomatic.

Rhombur Vernius and Archduke Armand will generally be more honorable/loyal/less aggressive than will Malky and Duke Prad Vidal.

I don't think looking at vanilla is a very good guide. At least not for me - I don't really know the vanilla personalities.

 

[davidlallen]

Its more useful for me to come up with a few adjectives of personality - or at least how they should differ from the other leaders in their faction.

I agree. But, I think you are the only one who knows what adjectives to use for the existing leaders. It may be easiest if you just "make something up" for the three new ones. It may be interesting for all of us if you add an adjectives column to the sheet. That way we could see what variations might fit in and make suggestions. But that seems like more work all around.

 

[Ahriman]

It may be easiest if you just "make something up" for the three new ones. It may be interesting for all of us if you add an adjectives column to the sheet.

Ok. I can do this.

 

[Ahriman]

Can we tweak some traits too? The Tleilaxu traits seems strange.

At the moment:
Goya Solidar : Industrious/"Creative" (=should be political)
Master Scytale: Philosophical/Protective

How about:
Goya Solidar = protective/scientific. Militaristic isolationist xenophobic warlord.
Master Scytale = philosophical/political. Manipulator/intrigue.