Playable Byzantines in RFC 600AD
- Thread starter Justus II
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3Miro
Deity
For the UHV:
in all the nations two of the victories were something the nation managed to accomplish (arguably depending on how you count 500 or 5000 culture points). Then one UHV is always something that the nation failed.
Greeks: First in philosophy, drama etc, they did build the wonders, but while they were strong in the Mediterranean Sea, they never went beyond. Hence they need to start the age of exploration by going around the world.
Romans: They did have the territory and all large Roman cities had the buildings, but Romans fell to the Barbarian Hordes.
Spain: Conquistadors = control of Inca and Aztec land, they were the first to settle in America, but soon other European nations joined the colonization and got ahead of Spain. So Spain should not let that happen.
The Byzantines were the most cultured in the early middle ages and Justinian had the the entire Mediterranean coast (he owned the sea). So:
1. Make Constantinople the most cultured city in year X is accurate.
Second condition would deal with the Byzantene domination in the Mediterranean. Conquer at least Rome, Egypt is fine too. Spain would be a problem because of Spain. So leave it at control Egypt, Carthage and Rome, or simply control 80 - 90% of the Mediterranean cities by year X. (it would be OK if spain has 1 - 2 cities as long as Byzantines control the vast majority of it)
Third condition: Where did the Byzantines fail, they lost Constantinople to the Crusaders and later they were overrun by the Ottomans. Make the goal as: Don't lose control over the Bosporus until 1600.
That is my opinion of course.
in all the nations two of the victories were something the nation managed to accomplish (arguably depending on how you count 500 or 5000 culture points). Then one UHV is always something that the nation failed.
Greeks: First in philosophy, drama etc, they did build the wonders, but while they were strong in the Mediterranean Sea, they never went beyond. Hence they need to start the age of exploration by going around the world.
Romans: They did have the territory and all large Roman cities had the buildings, but Romans fell to the Barbarian Hordes.
Spain: Conquistadors = control of Inca and Aztec land, they were the first to settle in America, but soon other European nations joined the colonization and got ahead of Spain. So Spain should not let that happen.
The Byzantines were the most cultured in the early middle ages and Justinian had the the entire Mediterranean coast (he owned the sea). So:
1. Make Constantinople the most cultured city in year X is accurate.
Second condition would deal with the Byzantene domination in the Mediterranean. Conquer at least Rome, Egypt is fine too. Spain would be a problem because of Spain. So leave it at control Egypt, Carthage and Rome, or simply control 80 - 90% of the Mediterranean cities by year X. (it would be OK if spain has 1 - 2 cities as long as Byzantines control the vast majority of it)
Third condition: Where did the Byzantines fail, they lost Constantinople to the Crusaders and later they were overrun by the Ottomans. Make the goal as: Don't lose control over the Bosporus until 1600.
That is my opinion of course.
3Miro
Deity
Destroy or make vassal of Turkey also works. Anything that goes with the idea: reverse history in the conquered by the Ottomans respect.
ijnavy
Czar
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How does this sound?
1. Constantinople is the most cultural city in 1000 AD.
2. Control Egypt, Carthage, and Rome by 1000.
3. Control Asia Minor in 1400.
Do you think that they have enough cities?
Do you think that more barbs should spawn in the Balkans?
What about a unique power (Preferably one that already exists)?
1. Constantinople is the most cultural city in 1000 AD.
2. Control Egypt, Carthage, and Rome by 1000.
3. Control Asia Minor in 1400.
Do you think that they have enough cities?
Do you think that more barbs should spawn in the Balkans?
What about a unique power (Preferably one that already exists)?
That'll be one hell of a hard UHV to get, if it's even possible. Your number of cities is going to result in a low tech rate, making it nearly impossible for you to keep up with the techs well enough to control asia minor.
Not to mention the stability problems.
"Do not lose any cities" like Japan and some others have is a much more reasonable variation on the goal.
Not to mention the stability problems.
"Do not lose any cities" like Japan and some others have is a much more reasonable variation on the goal.
You won't have stability problems if you're allowed to settle those areas without stability penalties.
"Destroy Turkey" is, IMO, a much better choice than "control Asia Minor". And 1400 is asking a lot either way; 1450 would be both more "historical" and more realistic.
Also, maybe "control six Mediterranean cities" to allow you some flexibility rather than requiring certain areas.
"Destroy Turkey" is, IMO, a much better choice than "control Asia Minor". And 1400 is asking a lot either way; 1450 would be both more "historical" and more realistic.
Also, maybe "control six Mediterranean cities" to allow you some flexibility rather than requiring certain areas.
When does they spawn? If they will have 3 settlers they will found: Constantinopolis, Tomis (Constanza) and Dyrrachium. Hatussas/Gordion will flip. Are you including Sur and Jerusalem in their spawn area?
I don't really like the third one, how about "control Egypt, Israel, Asia Minor, Balkans and the Black sea" in 1500? it will counter the Turkish expansion and will resemble the Byzantine struggle to survive.
ijnavy
Czar
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1. Constantinople is the most cultural city in 1000 AD.
2. Control Egypt, Carthage, and Rome by 1000.
3. Control the Balkans, Asia Minor, Egypt, and Levant in 1500.
Spawn 390 AD. Turn 140.
Yes, Sur and Jerusalem are both in the Byzantine Spawn Area.
Do you think that more barbs should spawn in the Balkans?
What about a unique power (Preferably one that already exists)?
Please forgive my horrible writing.
2. Control Egypt, Carthage, and Rome by 1000.
3. Control the Balkans, Asia Minor, Egypt, and Levant in 1500.
Spawn 390 AD. Turn 140.
Yes, Sur and Jerusalem are both in the Byzantine Spawn Area.
Do you think that more barbs should spawn in the Balkans?
What about a unique power (Preferably one that already exists)?
Please forgive my horrible writing.
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ijnavy
Czar
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How does the spawn area look?
Do you like Lokolus's idea, or these:
All military land units have a bonus in city defence,
or
state religion spreads with temples and cathedrals to conquered cities,
or even
Byzantine cities can't be demanded in a Congress
Do you like Lokolus's idea, or these:
All military land units have a bonus in city defence,
or
state religion spreads with temples and cathedrals to conquered cities,
or even
Byzantine cities can't be demanded in a Congress
3Miro
Deity
I remember I read somewhere a description of the Byzantines as: "An Empire of many different people, kept together by an army consisting of those same people". The Byzantine army was indeed a mixture of all the conquered people. How about the ability to draft say one unit per turn even in cities that have dominant non Byzantine culture. It is different for all existing UP so I don't know how to mod it.
Otherwise, the closes thing to the above the Carthaginian UP.
Otherwise, the closes thing to the above the Carthaginian UP.
flyingchicken
Deity
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How about "Shifty Politics" (from the adjective "byzantine," which is rooted in the Byzantine Empire)? Relations with other civs return to basic very quickly (from either positive or negative).
Or, for something less diplomatically-inclined, a bonus to espionage (a power which no other Civ has, methinks, and it will be very useful).
Or, for something less diplomatically-inclined, a bonus to espionage (a power which no other Civ has, methinks, and it will be very useful).
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
I don't think that's appropriate flyingchicken because the adjective Byzantine is not so much routed in the Empire but the perception of the Empire by jealous crusaders.
Also, the Byzantine Empire never really conquered any new land so the people it ruled it had so from Roman times. They may have been different people but we can be sure that there was more holding them together than the army (which after all, was very weak in many periods of Byzantine history).
ijnavy seems pretty serious about this so I would suggest you think about it from a game play perspective. As it is right now the Byzantines don't have normal stability, they auto-collapse when Constantinople is captured. If you preserve that as their UP it should minimise balancing issues from adding them as a full civ, it will be easy to implement, and it reflects how the Byzantine Empire always managed to survive for centuries even while it lost vast tracts of land to invaders, was violently divided by religious controversies and suffered under weak and selfish rulers.
Also, the Byzantine Empire never really conquered any new land so the people it ruled it had so from Roman times. They may have been different people but we can be sure that there was more holding them together than the army (which after all, was very weak in many periods of Byzantine history).
ijnavy seems pretty serious about this so I would suggest you think about it from a game play perspective. As it is right now the Byzantines don't have normal stability, they auto-collapse when Constantinople is captured. If you preserve that as their UP it should minimise balancing issues from adding them as a full civ, it will be easy to implement, and it reflects how the Byzantine Empire always managed to survive for centuries even while it lost vast tracts of land to invaders, was violently divided by religious controversies and suffered under weak and selfish rulers.
flyingchicken
Deity
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That won't be so much as a power as a penalty.
Gameplay perspective? I stand by adding maybe a 50%-100% espionage bonus, but, of the existing suggestions, I'll have to go for extra trade routes.
Gameplay perspective? I stand by adding maybe a 50%-100% espionage bonus, but, of the existing suggestions, I'll have to go for extra trade routes.
ijnavy
Czar
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I need to write what units they get when they spawn. What do you think that they should get?
Do you mean that the Byzantines cannot collapse, except if they loose Constantinople? I think that that is a great idea. Do you know where it is defined that the Byzantines auto collapse if they loose their capital?
EDIT: Found it. Does everyone think that that is a good UP?
I think I did it. I made the Byzantines collapse when their Capital is taken. Then, I made it so when you as the Byzantines are unstable, you get +100 stability points. I'm not sure if it will work on the AI.
Do you mean that the Byzantines cannot collapse, except if they loose Constantinople? I think that that is a great idea. Do you know where it is defined that the Byzantines auto collapse if they loose their capital?
EDIT: Found it. Does everyone think that that is a good UP?
I think I did it. I made the Byzantines collapse when their Capital is taken. Then, I made it so when you as the Byzantines are unstable, you get +100 stability points. I'm not sure if it will work on the AI.
flyingchicken
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No, I think Úmarth meant that if they lose their capital, they auto-collapse. But the "Does not collapse unless they lose their capital" might be good 
I like the idea but the mechanic is kind of messed up. the Byzantines can be unstable, they just can't collapse. If you give them +100 stability points they will be "very stable" and they won't lose cities and other stuff that stability effects.
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