Player stats, sales, and reception discussion

This was posted in another thread but I feel it's more relevant to this one.

Just to be careful about tone here, my point in bringing this up wasn’t to discuss the culture at Firaxis. My focus is on the game design vision and how it turned out that way.

My conclusion was that Civ 7 seems to have suffered from a bit of a clashing of at least two different visions (layers of engaging complex systems like religion or factories, which was abandoned for the perfect tight multiplayer experience), and that the vision never cohered - so they just literally last minute patched together a “make it just run” version of the initial vision.

I find Civ 7 above all its flaws to be how profoundly unfinished it is and how of all its various clashing (intentional or not) design visions, none really come together completely and in many cases the systems we receive are boring if not frustrating to play.

Good explanatory power is assigned to the idea of sudden shifts of design vision in that case. That’s all.

Again, my remaining contribution to the discourse is that I don’t agree that it’s specific changes to Civ that ruin Civ 7, but specifically the poorly realized or unfinished nature of the game. I have also spent plenty of time, tons of it, trying to substantively comment on this by suggesting what kinds of differences or changes the game could receive to improve upon these deficits. Of course on Reddit there’s the typical “oh so you know better than the devs huh”. But anyway I think somehow out in the ether these conversations we're having can possible make a difference. Other people making other 4x history games will use Civ 7 to inform the next big ideas and so forth.
 
My conclusion was that Civ 7 seems to have suffered from a bit of a clashing of at least two different visions (layers of engaging complex systems like religion or factories, which was abandoned for the perfect tight multiplayer experience), and that the vision never cohered - so they just literally last minute patched together a “make it just run” version of the initial vision.

In another thread two points were made relevant to this thesis.

One said that giving the devs the benefit of the doubt, city renaming wasn’t added at first because they wanted to sell the idea of civ switching and found the idea of city names from different eras being an important part of the theme.

I agree with the sentiment actually, but as many point out, how could they “miss” that regardless of new design choices, fans wouldn’t want a basic classic feature? It’s evidence of a locked in mentality hyper focused on making the very particular design vision on civ switching the singular focus. And then, it would only work if we can accept such a singular focus, if that vision cohered. Unfortunately, from settlement caps restricting the number of cities, to weird and sometimes incomprehensible capital switching rules, to the visual language of buildings making it a little unclear which buildings serve which functions, to the slightly tedious and uninteresting overbuilding premise, this singular civ switching focus just isn’t that impactful. But the whole carton of eggs was bet on it.

Next was a comment about how during a livestream someone asked if players could start in distant lands and be the “distant lands civ” and it was said that no one had thought of that yet (of course they’re adding that in). Again, the game vision is forcing us to deal with these distant lands in an essential way during exploration, something many fans find forced and annoying to the point where they only play antiquity. So if you’re singularly focused on that very narrow, tight age system, how do you overlook one of the most central mechanics of it and one of the more obvious questions? On top of the problem of distant lands often being fully settled when you arrive, a thing they had to fix!

There are more examples like this. A lot about this game was sacrificed to a singular vision, and that vision didn’t even come together, with dozens of problems, leaving everything else outside of the narrow vision highly neglected.

That’s, IMO, my most substantive explanation for why the game is not being received well.

I also want to know, what’s with the 1.20 resources? Why did we need more resources and who asked for it? I don’t mind the concept, but how did this emerge at the hallmark addition to reinvigorate launch? It was announced very early so I assumed it was to address problems with exploration or factories but it really doesn’t it’s just… more resources. Was this planned pre-launch? Why was this the thing they focused on? Is it because it’s the only thing you can easily add that the AI knows how to handle?

Resources by the way are the only thing about Civ 7 that adds variability to gameplay. I suppose they’re a huge part of the 4X formula, but then again, here we are again at why people find antiquity fun and not the rest.
 
In another thread two points were made relevant to this thesis.

One said that giving the devs the benefit of the doubt, city renaming wasn’t added at first because they wanted to sell the idea of civ switching and found the idea of city names from different eras being an important part of the theme.

I agree with the sentiment actually, but as many point out, how could they “miss” that regardless of new design choices, fans wouldn’t want a basic classic feature? It’s evidence of a locked in mentality hyper focused on making the very particular design vision on civ switching the singular focus. And then, it would only work if we can accept such a singular focus, if that vision cohered. Unfortunately, from settlement caps restricting the number of cities, to weird and sometimes incomprehensible capital switching rules, to the visual language of buildings making it a little unclear which buildings serve which functions, to the slightly tedious and uninteresting overbuilding premise, this singular civ switching focus just isn’t that impactful. But the whole carton of eggs was bet on it.

Next was a comment about how during a livestream someone asked if players could start in distant lands and be the “distant lands civ” and it was said that no one had thought of that yet (of course they’re adding that in). Again, the game vision is forcing us to deal with these distant lands in an essential way during exploration, something many fans find forced and annoying to the point where they only play antiquity. So if you’re singularly focused on that very narrow, tight age system, how do you overlook one of the most central mechanics of it and one of the more obvious questions? On top of the problem of distant lands often being fully settled when you arrive, a thing they had to fix!

There are more examples like this. A lot about this game was sacrificed to a singular vision, and that vision didn’t even come together, with dozens of problems, leaving everything else outside of the narrow vision highly neglected.

That’s, IMO, my most substantive explanation for why the game is not being received well.

I also want to know, what’s with the 1.20 resources? Why did we need more resources and who asked for it? I don’t mind the concept, but how did this emerge at the hallmark addition to reinvigorate launch? It was announced very early so I assumed it was to address problems with exploration or factories but it really doesn’t it’s just… more resources. Was this planned pre-launch? Why was this the thing they focused on? Is it because it’s the only thing you can easily add that the AI knows how to handle?

Resources by the way are the only thing about Civ 7 that adds variability to gameplay. I suppose they’re a huge part of the 4X formula, but then again, here we are again at why people find antiquity fun and not the rest.

I’m assuming they added more resources because they were already planning on doing that and had a lot of the work done by launch.

Maybe that’s why they decided to focus on auto explore before dozens of more seemingly important issues with the game: It was partially done.
 
I’m assuming they added more resources because they were already planning on doing that and had a lot of the work done by launch.

Maybe that’s why they decided to focus on auto explore before dozens of more seemingly important issues with the game: It was partially done.
More resources are part of the symmetrical game Firaxis is planned. It's hard to say whether they it was originally planned or added in response to concerns from reviewers that you can't play with all human players on both sides of the globe.

Auto explore is a bit different thing, it clearly was in the backlog from the beginning as it's a feature which is expected to be done in Civ games. It's inclusion in roadmap is not a sign of some focus, it's just a thing Firaxis was sure they are going to implement.
 
More resources are part of the symmetrical game Firaxis is planned. It's hard to say whether they it was originally planned or added in response to concerns from reviewers that you can't play with all human players on both sides of the globe.

Auto explore is a bit different thing, it clearly was in the backlog from the beginning as it's a feature which is expected to be done in Civ games. It's inclusion in roadmap is not a sign of some focus, it's just a thing Firaxis was sure they are going to implement.
And yet, of all possible options, they went with „how to do auto-explore“ for their big „we listen to the players“ campaign…
 
Didn't you read the UI devs' description of work life at Firaxis?
To clarify; there are two reviews that have been posted. One was from this year; one from over a year ago. Only one was UI; the other was QA.

How many other reviews exist by Firaxis employees? It'd be interested to see how many of them there are.
 
, but then again, here we are again at why people find antiquity fun and not the rest.
point n.1
There is nothing more anti-historical than the concept of distant - unknown lands. The Romans got the American sea routes maps from the carthaginians, who themselves got them from both Minoans and Egyptians.. China had its own routes all along for the East part... The Romans kept those a military secret, with death penalty for anyone that would disclose even the smallest details about it, and when Rome collapsed, the church kept those secrets in its vaults for 1000 plus years... with only seaworth vessel tech being the natural bottleneck...

point n.2
Seamless full map exploration is one of the core aspects of the civ series, and the Exploration age seems in all aspects as a forced mini-scenario, which can be fun to play a couple of times, but it completely
breaks the focus and immersion. Add to it you lose all your units, that can't even be upgraded to Elite, nor being renamed and the eggroll is served.
And for the reasons of point n.1 If I start playing as Carthage or the Norse, or any other antiquity sea focused civ, I'd expect to be able to at least try some Ocean crossing with an higher rate of success, not just being ruled out a section of the Map.

Point n.3
Map dynamic generation as part of an innovative evolution of the franchise is possible, so in a way, some part of the "vision" could work on paper. As to "Why the players don't like finishing the game or even go past the Ancient age" idk if it's an assumption, a stat fact, an interpolation of feelings or what else, but as a dev I'd be more concerned about points n.1 and 2... i.e. coherency.
 
Last edited:
I’m assuming they added more resources because they were already planning on doing that and had a lot of the work done by launch.

Maybe that’s why they decided to focus on auto explore before dozens of more seemingly important issues with the game: It was partially done.
I thought the story with not having auto explore was that they wanted to encourage the player to experience the map themselves? I can’t remember where I saw that, but I think Ed Beach said something to that effect at some point.
 
I thought the story with not having auto explore was that they wanted to encourage the player to experience the map themselves? I can’t remember where I saw that, but I think Ed Beach said something to that effect at some point.

That makes it extra sad then that auto explore is where they’re dumping resources so early in the game’s lifecycle when there’s so much else missing that is more necessary imo.
 
I thought the story with not having auto explore was that they wanted to encourage the player to experience the map themselves? I can’t remember where I saw that, but I think Ed Beach said something to that effect at some point.
It was more like because Scouts have an ability now that requires player decision-making.
 
I thought the story with not having auto explore was that they wanted to encourage the player to experience the map themselves? I can’t remember where I saw that, but I think Ed Beach said something to that effect at some point.

Makes sense since finding those first few resources and maybe a bit of forward settling is the only real meaningful gameplay there is. Everything else is pretty on rails other than if you choose to go conquer or not.
 
I thought the story with not having auto explore was that they wanted to encourage the player to experience the map themselves? I can’t remember where I saw that, but I think Ed Beach said something to that effect at some point.
Fast movement makes for interesting gameplay, i.e. focus on conquest. Auto-scout is an integral part of making the turns ends quicker. It's a dumb choice exactly because it directly impacts gameplay.
 
And yet, of all possible options, they went with „how to do auto-explore“ for their big „we listen to the players“ campaign…
I don't think it's a sign of feature importance, quite the opposite.

For important features it's impossible to design them inside someone head, even for experienced game designers, much less regular players. You have to make prototypes and test them.

That's why auto explore was chosen as a feature to listen to players. Even if it turn out to be mostly useless due to this, it won't hurt the game.
 
Not having auto-explore as a feature seems another example of the game devs thinking they know more than we do.
You don't play this game, right? So you probably have no idea that Scouts have a powerful ability that requires decision making because it ends the Scout's turn. This is a new feature that auto-explore wouldn't have allowed players to try out.
 
There is nothing more anti-historical than the concept of distant - unknown lands. The Romans got the American sea routes maps from the carthaginians, who themselves got them from both Minoans and Egyptians.. China had its own routes all along for the East part... The Romans kept those a military secret, with death penalty for anyone that would disclose even the smallest details about it, and when Rome collapsed, the church kept those secrets in its vaults for 1000 plus years... with only seaworth vessel tech being the natural bottleneck...
This doesn't seem remotely plausible to me. What is your source for these claims?

In particular, the claim that Romans had the death penalty for anyone who would disclose these secrets. How could we come to know that? What could possibly be the historical source for that little piece of information? They couldn't publish that death penalty (without disclosing the existence of the secrets themselves). So did they only communicate it to the people to whom the secrets were made known ("If you ever tell anyone about this, we'll whack ya!")? But if so, and if the cognoscenti held their tongue because of the threat, then how has the existence of the threat (and the knowledge) come to be known since then? What body was the keeper of the secret? What form did the secret knowledge take? Sea charts? And those have survived somewhere?

Sorry, I know this is a tangent, but . . . SO many questions.
 
Last edited:
This one video by Ed Beach he says that "the big idea of Civ 7 is to take the very long drawn out Civ experience that could take players 10, 15, or 20 hours to get through a game and break it up into chapters."

This is just fundamentally opposite the expectations of many players. Civ4 could be configured from tiny maps to huge, quick games to long, some of us played the epic games. I would NEVER boot up for a game would only last 50 hours. Many of my games went 700 plus turns as I soft modded my game to handicap myself enough to make it interesting against the AI. It was an experience; I can remember the history of the last game I played over a year ago (and an open-heart surgery ago). It was an awesome struggle. Players like me would never receive well a game from someone who thinks 20 hours is drawn out.

This backs up my contention that developers are afraid of making great games, fear that players won't buy the next game and put them out of business. Which is stupid as there was infinite room to improve Civ4 when they gave up on it.

But exclude players like me who desire the six continent 200 city marathons. Most players want much more substantial games than the ages system offers. Civ 7 is like a mini-scenario, and they still couldn't finish it.

No one who thinks 15 hours is a long drawn out game experience has any business working on a Civ game. They are in the wrong genre.
 
Last edited:
This doesn't seem remotely plausible to me. What is your source for these claims?

In particular, the claim that Romans had the death penalty for anyone who would disclose these secrets. How could we come to know that? What could possibly be the historical source for that little piece of information? They couldn't publish that death penalty (without disclosing the existence of the secrets themselves). So did they only communicate it to the people to whom the secrets were made known ("If you ever tell anyone about this, we'll whack ya!")? But if so, and if the cognoscenti held their tongue because of the threat, then how has the existence of the threat (and the knowledge) come to be known since then? What body was the keeper of the secret? What form did the secret knowledge take? Sea charts? And those have survived somewhere?

Sorry, I know this is a tangent, but . . . SO many questions.
I think the claim is that the church suppressed it and some lost Vatican document backs it up. I dunno.
 
This one video by Ed Beach he says that "the big idea of Civ 7 is to take the very long drawn out Civ experience that could take players 10, 15, or 20 hours to get through a game and break it up into chapters."

This is just fundamentally opposite the expectations of many players.
Yeah, I'm in this camp. One of the primary things I want of a Civ game is that it be long.

I'll break my life up into chapters to fit it.
 
Back
Top Bottom