Player stats, sales, and reception discussion

Personally I don't mind the eras. And if any of the controversial features can be "fixed" I think it's this - simply because by adding options to carry over more or less, firaxis can let players almost completely decide how dramatic of a cutoff they want eras to be.

Legacy paths and civ switching are likely the thornier issues to fix... And the extent to which people dislike those versus ages in general is tougher to disentangle.

I tried playing Civ6 again yesterday. Gotta say, not having commanders, having builders, and being incentivised towards ICS was a real feels bad. As much as Civ7 has its issues, the fundamental changes firaxis made were awesome. I have no doubt that a "classic civ" mode or mod for Civ7 would be amazing.
 
Personally I don't mind the eras. And if any of the controversial features can be "fixed" I think it's this - simply because by adding options to carry over more or less, firaxis can let players almost completely decide how dramatic of a cutoff they want eras to be.

Legacy paths and civ switching are likely the thornier issues to fix... And the extent to which people dislike those versus ages in general is tougher to disentangle.

I tried playing Civ6 again yesterday. Gotta say, not having commanders, having builders, and being incentivised towards ICS was a real feels bad. As much as Civ7 has its issues, the fundamental changes firaxis made were awesome. I have no doubt that a "classic civ" mode or mod for Civ7 would be amazing.

I think you are right, the Legacy & and Civ switches are the biggest things other than UI/bugs.

and they are different
Legacy is mostly a game mechanics & AI issue... boring/repetitive/no counterplay
Civ switches are mostly a immersion/narrative feel issue...why can't I send Rome into space

Civ Switches I think need to be more thoroughly solved by changing names/graphics/etc. and giving player narrative event control over how those name, etc. changes happen.

Legacy Paths are better through adding counterplay where it is lacking, improving the AI once counterplay is available, and making them a Little bit more involved.
 
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Steam Reviews
POSTED: 14 MAY
I'm another "since Civ 1" player. Have owned and played every version. Civ 7 is an admirable try to evolve the game but it's the least enjoyable version I've played yet. The different "Eras" and complete break and short era length and complete focus on the same goals every time make every game feel the same and redundant. The map size limit of Standard is horrible too. It feels like a fancy mobile version. Please fix it.

POSTED: 14 MAY
Dear Feraxis, I wish you never release CIV 7 and we will just wait longer for CIV 8, and you will have someone who know what we need from new Civilization game, unfortunately CIV 7 is nothing to do with Civilization franchise and it will be forgotten pretty soon.

POSTED: 14 MAY
They would need to completely rework so many core elements of the gameplay to actually save this game. I just don't see it happening :/

POSTED: 6 MAY
I've played and enjoyed Civilization III, IV, V, VI, and was very excited to pre-order VII. Having played now through several full games, this has been the least enjoyable of the series. Visually, there are some good elements (I like how far you can zoom in, although after all these years, we still can't rotate the camera?) but the overall appearance is very cluttered. I think the ability to mix-and-match leaders is neat, but being forced to change civilizations with each new era almost misses the whole point of the Civilization series, and basically amounts to simply ending your game and starting a new one on the same map. The actual gameplay seems to have taken all the busywork of a late-stage Civ 5 or 6 game where you're micromanaging too many cities, and spread this across the entire game so that you're just mindlessly clicking, clicking, clicking with no end in sight and no meaningful decisions to make. There are some "crisis" quests but once you've played through them a few times, they are redundant and box you into certain gameplans, and many of them themselves amount to little more than clicking "repair" in every settlement every single turn. Ultimately, it's boring. It doesn't have that spark the other games in the series have had. It doesn't feel like you're recreating an alternate history of human civilization. If you ask me, it will not "stand the test of time."

Posted: 13 May @ 7:06am

I think we were too hard on Humankind. We judged it too harshly. At least Humankind's mess was its own. Civ7 took the worst part of Humankind , the identity crisis , the forced civilization change and made it somehow even worse. Every era is like a reset. Almost nothing you did in previous eras matters. Did you go all in in science to have an advantage ? Jokes on you , now everyone starts at the same level again. City states dissapear and different ones appear. Why did I spend all these resources to befriend them and reap benefits for 10 whole turns ? What a mess.

Posted: 9 May @ 12:03am

Just do yourself a favor and play Civ 5 or 6. Huge step backwards. So sad .

Etc
 
This thread and is predecessor are so interesting. On the one hand there’s the doom and gloom of just posting the bad numbers and negative reviews with occasional arguments about their relevancy. On the other, there’s an ongoing really interesting discussion of what went wrong with the game design (and its process) and what could improve it.
 
A few days ago, in the Civ 7 News & Reviews section I posted a conversation between Brandon Sanderson and his fellow author/friend Dan Wells. I didn’t break down my views of the conversation in that thread because I wanted people to be able to approach it without my views leading them to any sort of conclusion. I found this conversation interesting for a couple reasons.
  1. Brandon Sanderson is just a likable guy and he occupies a prominent place in current American nerd culture, which likely makes up a sizable portion of the Civilization audience.
  2. It defined two main types of Civ players and identified how Civ 7 fell short in pleasing both types.
  3. Both are long-term fans of the franchise and have played it for decades.
The types of players I see are min-maxers and storytellers. In the conversation, Brandon identified as a min-maxer, highlighting how his enjoyment in Civ came from long-term planning and strategy. Dan identified as a storyteller, speaking about how he enjoyed cultivating a civilization over time and creating a story.

Interestingly, neither seemed particularly satisfied with Civ 7. For Brandon, the civ switching and ages undermined how he likes to plan out his game and care about the decisions since they would later be undone. Dan, on the other hand, found it difficult to care about his civ, since it would be changing anyway.
 
The loading screens between eras is fundamental to how the game is built.

This is true, I'm not arguing that they should have engineered a different solution to allow for seamless era transitions (although that would be better). My point is that creating *any* clear break, the concept of age transitions itself, gives players an exit ramp to stop playing for the night. That's what is counter to modern engagement based game design
 
Interestingly, neither seemed particularly satisfied with Civ 7. For Brandon, the civ switching and ages undermined how he likes to plan out his game and care about the decisions since they would later be undone. Dan, on the other hand, found it difficult to care about his civ, since it would be changing anyway.
It's just weirdly unfinished.

I'd like the ages if they were 1.75-2.25x longer, not using (the especially unbalanced as of now) game speed modifiers. If there were actual constant narrative events with choose your own adventure type choices and alternatives that affected diplomacy. If the crisis was something you could exercise more influence over, either mastering it, taking advantage of it, getting swamped by it (with appropriate "dark age" benefits next age).

Where each age had 1.5 the tech tree in the sense of you're only going to use 66% of the tech tree any playthrough, so it's always different.

Where each age's progression works fundamentally differently (maybe a medieval age with a limited tech tree but a massive culture tree with a huge religion branch).

Take the shell of Civ 7 and do what I said, and it would be really fun.

We're nitpicking the design vision and granted I think we've done a great job of putting the je ne sais quo of design into words, but at the end of the day, I think 7 is just underbaked.

We've proposed ways you could "pimp my ride" with the beater we've been given, without going back and redoing development. Still, the issue is the game is hollow and shallow. And a lot of the feature suite ends up making the game experience worse. Like crises.

I don't turn crises off because they just feel like the whole point of the game. Why have ages and civ switching and a close to an age with no crisis? They're integral to the experience for me. There's not enough gained by turning them off, where civ 7 underneath them is still fun. It's just, still boring, so I play with crisis as frustrating as it is. Oh, and, I'm not playing anymore anyway.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around accepting the idea of the age changes with narrative events and crisis as a scenario like approach, but then the product we got being so inadequate to the premise. My mind is trying to settle on, "What would have been at least the bare minimum 'more' that Civ 7 needed for this concept to basically work".

Even so, the concept does not accommodate across the ages storytelling or min maxing. I suppose it could. You could bridge between ages better.

  1. Wars in past ages are referenced in narrative events and lead to bonuses, celebrations, anniversaries in later ages.
  2. There's variability in the legacy buildings. Wonders related to trade in cities with lots of trade routes look different and get different yields in later eras, otherwise they decline and become ruin. Same for buildings. Some buildings turn to farmland with ruins 3d models.
  3. Great works! Good god, why don't great works cross ages? They're science, religious, then cultural. There's no reason Modern couldn't accommodate all three as they fill different domains. An association between a great work and a given building can boost the effect the more ages this association exists.
  4. Ethnic groups. Egyptians lived in Ptolemaic Egypt next to Hebrews and Greeks. Modern Copts lived next to Arabs. You could be the Mughal Empire but still have Persian festivals.
  5. Leader titles and or palaces. What a miss! If you had a palace like Civ III, then it would visually express continuity across ages.
  6. Graphs, victory screen timeline maps. Showing your empire growing over time, in spite of age changes.
Anyway, I've made my point.

If Civ 7 is none of this because it wants to be a tight, balanced competitive game with great AI, well, it's none of those things.

It's just not finished. It's a failed development. It's not necessarily the concept, although sticking to the tried and true formula would have left less room for error.
 
We're nitpicking the design vision and granted I think we've done a great job of putting the je ne sais quo of design into words, but at the end of the day, I think 7 is just underbaked.


  1. Great works! Good god, why don't great works cross ages? They're science, religious, then cultural. There's no reason Modern couldn't accommodate all three as they fill different domains. An association between a great work and a given building can boost the effect the more ages this association exists.
  2. Ethnic groups. Egyptians lived in Ptolemaic Egypt next to Hebrews and Greeks. Modern Copts lived next to Arabs. You could be the Mughal Empire but still have Persian festivals.
  3. Graphs, victory screen timeline maps. Showing your empire growing over time, in spite of age changes.
Anyway, I've made my point.

If Civ 7 is none of this because it wants to be a tight, balanced competitive game with great AI, well, it's none of those things.

It's just not finished. It's a failed development. It's not necessarily the concept, although sticking to the tried and true formula would have left less room for error.
Great Works is definitely one. since "Great Works" is a title maybe ones from a previous age become "Old Works" which can be displayed in the appropriate buildings
Universities holding old Codexes for +1 Science
Museums* holding old Relics or old Codexes for +1 Culture
*with separate slots from the Great Works

Or even some of the Artifacts Being old Codexes and Relics from previous Eras

And having more Narrative events because you were X civilization in the previous age (Shawnee have some Modern Age Narratives) would be good.

Very Very Very much Victory screen/map/graphs... if we are to build something we believe in.. and build it in layers... let us see and marvel at the layers we have built.
 
That's what is counter to modern engagement based game design
Would you call modern engagement-based design good though?

Freemium / F2P games are built on (aggressively maximising) hours spent with the game open (not even necessarily playing it). I'm not sure that's healthy (especially for games with an upfront cost). And it's not just F2P games that have started doing this.

Having multiple stopping points is fine. If you want to keep playing, you will. If you want to play another Antiquity game, you can. I've been doing that a lot until Firaxis get the pacing better for Exploration and Modern.
 
I was thinking about the age transitions lately (haven't played the game in weeks though) and I was wondering why they went with this clear cut policy. Why didn't they implement a more fluid change? There would have been so much potential, for example:

- if you are playing mainly tall, evolve to a tall nation, the same with wide? (idk, England wide, Switzerland tall)
- science leader? Become Korea (referring to V here ^^), military? Become Genghis etc
- build wonder XY? Evolve towards Z
- etc

they could implement a screen where you can constantly see to what upcoming nation you are contributing. Also the cuts between the ages are a killer for me. You could evolve into another nation over the span of 20-30 turns while keeping the game running. With the option to play "classic" as one nation + leader.

Obviously the win conditions at the end of every age tradition need to go as they are completely diametral to any open world / story design and forces you on rails. Also things like the forced colonization in the Exploration age. Get away from rails and back into "play as you like" and it is a huge step for the game.
 
Would you call modern engagement-based design good though?
I intentionally didn't make a judgement call because I do agree that modern freemium gameplay is a plague on modern gaming. From a business and metrics perspective, though, I just think it's baffling to take one of the most organically addicting games with an unofficial motto literally built around it's players' insistence on continuing forward, and just... killing that engagement? Good or bad for gameplay it has to be bad for business
 
I intentionally didn't make a judgement call because I do agree that modern freemium gameplay is a plague on modern gaming. From a business and metrics perspective, though, I just think it's baffling to take one of the most organically addicting games with an unofficial motto literally built around it's players' insistence on continuing forward, and just... killing that engagement? Good or bad for gameplay it has to be bad for business
I don't think a psychological off-ramp is going to meaurably diminish the one more turn effect.

Obviously not much in the way of proof, but the amount of outcry over "one more turn" is evidence that players a) get there and b) want it.
 
I regret having not sensed and voiced a sense of empathy for the team at Firaxis. This game is a major part of their career and their life and given the failure of the launch and the evidence of discord in the organization it's clear that this is, and for many, will continue to be a nightmare for them. I have gone through similar meltdowns in the days before I had my faith to sustain me and I could not cope. I pray God will shine His face upon them and give them grace.
 
Absolutely. Any criticism levied at Firaxis should rightly target leadership rather than the rank and file. From my own professional experience my bet is that a lot of the staff amongst themselves may have known things could be issues but their feedback would be ignored. Very sad and frustrating to work on something for years and see it languish like this.
 
"one more turn" = "engagement based" avant la lettre.

And "one more turn" is, let me attest, not healthy!
 
there’s an ongoing really interesting discussion of what went wrong with the game design (and its process) and what could improve it.

This is what brings me back. There are a lot of good (and differing) perspectives here on what makes a game enjoyable for any one player, what makes a game commercially successful or not, how to improve a game over time, etc.

Particularly in the context of a high-budget game with a diverse player group. An indie game can "lean in" to its initial audience and over time become even more of what it currently is. Civ 6 was able to do that, too (which, from my perspective, is why Civ 6 got worse with every DLC, because it went further and further away from the type of Civ game I enjoy). I'm not sure Civ 7 can do that, but maybe? Can it / should it, just go full steam after a greater share of wallet for the audience who enjoy the civ-switching/era system? Or should it course correct towards those who don't enjoy it?
 
It seems obvious now that Firaxis gained a lot of good will with how Civ VI was handled.

The real test now is seeing how well the first Civ VII standalone DLC sells.
Speaking of Crossroads of the World, how can anyone say that this game company doesnt engage in predatory pricing when this thirty dollar piece of software exists?
 
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I don't think a psychological off-ramp is going to meaurably diminish the one more turn effect.
We'll have to disagree on this one. I'm not a psychologist of any sort, but every bit I've learned about the modern attention economy has taught me that the key to maximizing engagement is always throwing out more content and never letting the user pause. I absolutely think letting players stop after 150 turns instead of 400 affects play time.
 
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