JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Access Denied to Document VI.
Player's Guide to Complex Traits
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You must be in the game with the option on to see them show up properly.
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The core's schema should be updated to the module's. I did forget to do that, not that it matters to anything but the validator.
Some things to clean up in the schema apparently, again, not that it makes any difference to anything but the validator.
It's possible a replacement effort I went through may have bled over to numerous files and places completely unintended since they were supposed to be limited to the highlighted portion. I didn't catch this error, sorry. Help in resolving it is certainly appreciated.
Is that the only one? All Tier II traits should be unlocked at Ren Lifestyle and all Tier III traits should be unlocked at Information Lifestyle..
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Thanks. Fixed now.
Oh this would explain it, I thought third tier is unlocked at Transhuman era.
By the way there is no validation errors anymore.
That is XML validator finds mod free from errors.
How national culture ladder look for Complex Traits?
Handicaps definitely don't influence it, world size probably could be some flat multiplier since if Duel has area of 1, then Tiny/Small/Standard/Large/Huge/Giant/Gigantic have area of 2/3/4/5/6/7/8, but on other hand amount of civs is 2 on Duel and then goes 4/6/8/10/12/14/16
And it is directly influenced by Game Speed.
So first trait (if playing without any traits on start) needs 40 National Culture on Normal speed.
Looks like cost goes *10, its pretty steep, maybe it should be *5 with Complex Traits.
Also trait choice seems to be blocked by tech window.
Or at least be delayed by one turn.
Spoiler :
Some traits don't fit window.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I had no idea what you were talking about at first.
Nothing changed about when you get new traits. They open up at the same rates they always have.
It's not really intended to differ.
That's why I put the long lists at the bottom (generally). I'll have to do something to have that display bleed out with a few buildings/techs mentioned and then say etc... or something but I'm not sure how to differentiate when it's in a hover vs when its in the pedia and in the pedia it should list them out in full.
Quick question I was hoping if someone could answer when they get to a selection point... can you right click on a trait selection when the popup is up to have it take you to the pedia entry for that trait? Is that possible? I was looking to add a way to get into the pedia then realized it looked like that was an automatic function of the normal widget that was used there.
Hey, I tried to make sure that all the spots where that dang autoreplacement from 50 to 25 had hit were corrected. But I had somewhat limited time to ensure that they were all taken care of. If you have some time, could you help me with a quick audit on the SVN logs to make sure I got them all?
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So what items were meant to be changed from 50 to 25?
Unified Diff allows to view changes in compact way.
Also how someone can get multiple traits selections in Renaissance-Atomic era and then in Information and later eras?
Most likely no player ever will get third level of traits.
Also city and nationwide accumulated culture should be made overflow-proof now
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
When I was doing some final editing I did some sweeping adjustments to some building production modifiers and had a number of files open in notepad and must have selected to replace all instances rather than just the ones that were within the highlighted range - I have a hell of a time with notepad suddenly deselecting that checkbox for some reason. Anyhow, I THINK I caught all the files that got randomly hit by that and corrected them in one of the last few commits last night but a quick check on all the files that I had modified in my initial release MIGHT find I missed correcting a file or two so a quick compare and correct would take care of it. I'm just wanting a 3rd pair of eyes to look at the files that were changed in that initial release to ensure that if there were 50s changed to 25s in any of them that they've since been corrected. (fixing my main traits info file was the biggest time consumer with this but you can't check any files I added with this because the SVN doesn't show any 'original' to compare to - this is one reason to get things onto the SVN before worrying too much about extensive testing and fixing since its often easier to do that once you have a record established.)
I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. By getting enough culture would be the general answer I suppose. You're supposed to not necessarily be able to get every trait you've selected up into the higher tiers but you should be able to get some up there. I may need to now open up the cultural cap limit on national culture earnings by switching from a maximum limit over to the system used by gold with a new denomination amount at a million. The math will be a little tricky for figuring out thresholds for new trait level gains at that point but I'll sort it out. It was a 'next step' to getting this stuff onto the SVN and then fully debugged. Shouldn't take long.
At what point do you find nations are hitting the current maximum limit?
I think we got all 50->25 replacement mistakes fixed now.
I meant, that I should be able to upgrade multiple traits after Medieval era.
That is trait selection popup should be guaranteed to be once or twice per era.
So by endgame how many level I/II/III traits I should have?
As for limits its more of general question, since there is one last culture level, that is commented out.
Code:
<!--Alberts2 high iThreshold can lead to integer overflows
<CultureLevelInfo>
<Type>CULTURELEVEL_MONUMENTAL</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_MONUMENTAL</Description>
<iCityDefenseModifier>50</iCityDefenseModifier>
<SpeedThresholds>
<SpeedThreshold>
<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</GameSpeedType>
<iThreshold>8000000</iThreshold>
</SpeedThreshold>
<SpeedThreshold>
<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EONS</GameSpeedType>
<iThreshold>7000000</iThreshold>
</SpeedThreshold>
<SpeedThreshold>
<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</GameSpeedType>
<iThreshold>5000000</iThreshold>
</SpeedThreshold>
<SpeedThreshold>
<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
<iThreshold>3000000</iThreshold>
</SpeedThreshold>
<SpeedThreshold>
<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_EPIC</GameSpeedType>
<iThreshold>2000000</iThreshold>
</SpeedThreshold>
<SpeedThreshold>
<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</GameSpeedType>
<iThreshold>1000000</iThreshold>
</SpeedThreshold>
</SpeedThresholds>
<iCityRadius>3</iCityRadius>
<iMaxWorldWonders>14</iMaxWorldWonders>
<iMaxTeamWonders>16</iMaxTeamWonders>
<iMaxNationalWonders>31</iMaxNationalWonders>
<iMaxNationalWondersOCC>31</iMaxNationalWondersOCC>
</CultureLevelInfo>-->As for national culture limit I guess its faster to reach on larger maps than smaller ones.
Generally in Nanotech and later eras capital hits a cap, and then other cities.
So if national culture cap is 21 million too (not 2 100 million as it would be normally), then it is hit after Information or Nanotech era.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Since DL was put in place, I have not been able to play a game that deep. My wife did but I'm not sure what she experienced with more trait selections past medieval. So truth is, I'm not sure what one would expect.
I figure you're probably going to get about 4 Tier I traits, around 2 Tier II Traits, and should be able to get one Tier III trait at least. This would grow more with the absolute limit cap being removed. Obviously, games will vary a lot.
I don't think I'd be too concerned about individual cities being capped out. Trying to get them to go past the maximum of a given long long int would be very tricky, as well as a little unnecessary. But still having more gains from them pouring into national counts should matter still I think.
Another thing to consider... we should be trying to smooth out cultural generation across the whole game a bit. There are currently some buildings that are giving way too much culture imo. This pushes us into issues with too much gain too fast throwing off the expectable achievement rates.
It's also quite probable that once I start feeling like its time to directly develop the game in the post nano eras, I might start looking at some combination traits that you can only get by having two tier III traits - tier IV traits that reflect combinations of 2 other trait lines. That late LATE game, if ever truly valid for play, could see a LOT of culture output.
There are also some ideas for having your leader change now and then, which would change the outlook on how many traits you would collect.
It's intended to be allowed to vary a lot how this exactly interacts with a given game. I mean, if you seriously developed your culture, you'll get a lot different amounts than if you take a bunch of traits that actually diminish culture.
Esfera
Warlord
- Joined
- May 28, 2018
- Messages
- 110
Liking it so far. Looking good. I always play with developing leaders on and this adds a whole new layer of roleplaying and costumization to it.
But several things though:
Good job Thunderbird.
*Example: 1 water pollution every turn for every 4 citizens in a city. One small city has 3 citizens, so the city gets 0 extra water pollution every turn. Other small city with 6 citizens gets only 1 extra water pollution every turn.
But several things though:
- Is the Pure Traits option going to be more or less balanced? It seems like a challenge in game design making so.
- Aren't settled citizens unused in thev current mod SVN? Why the bonuses then? Seems like unnecessary complexity.
- Some traits make settled slaves quite OverPowered, remember they also the get the bonuses that the regular specialists also get. In mid game, before industrialization, you can get between 40-70 slaves to settle in a medium-size city easily.
- Are fractions/decimals in the property modifiers going to get rounded to 0 due to the hardcoded Civ IV mecanics like Joseph said the other day?*
Good job Thunderbird.
*Example: 1 water pollution every turn for every 4 citizens in a city. One small city has 3 citizens, so the city gets 0 extra water pollution every turn. Other small city with 6 citizens gets only 1 extra water pollution every turn.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Excellent question. As I explained in the first post, I used a purchase process to buy positive and negative values on traits and with the exception of how some promotions skew the results a little, Pure Traits should be equally balanced as if it was not on because the same amount of negative penalties and positive benefits were purchased across all traits depending on if the trait is overall positive or negative.
More specifically, all non-DL positive traits purchased 25 points of benefits and 10 points of penalties.
All Tier I positive traits purchased 18 points of benefits and 6 points of penalties.
All Tier II positive traits purchased 21 points of benefits and 7 points of penalties.
All Tier III positive traits purchased 24 points of benefits and 8 points of penalties.
All Negative Traits purchased the same but opposite amounts. (25 points of penalties but 10 points of benefits on non-DL negative traits...)
When Pure Traits is ON, all penalties vanish on all positive traits and all benefits vanish on all negative traits.
Due to promotions and property values being either all on or all off, sometimes the applications of those, when they were a mix rather than purely beneficial or penalizing, are a little imbalancing from this, but if the promotions are mostly positive on a negative trait, it will vanish on Pure Traits and if the promotion is mostly negative on a positive trait, it will vanish on Pure Traits. If you have more positive property values on a negative trait, they will all vanish on Pure Traits and if you have more negative property values on a positive trait, they'll all vanish on Pure Traits. Those are about the only reasons it's a little imbalanced, but nothing more severe than some of the adjustments that even some other options introduce.
I don't believe they are unused. When you free your slaves, you get citizens. I guess I'm letting this tell DH how I think he should make them work if they don't already. There could be other applications of them to come if we're not using them now anyhow.
That's an entire strategy one can try to play on. I would need to see proof that something is completely OVER powered in comparison to other massively powerful combinations. I'm not going to pretend that these traits do not make a great deal more power possible in a lot of ways. The question that stands on the table here is whether those powers are so much greater than the powers other trait and trait combinations can give.
IF you're going to play that strategy of building up your slave benefits, I'd like to hear the feedback on just how well it works and what the pros and cons of it ended up being. Slaves also mean you get more crime and disease and direct unhappiness and unhealth. Furthermore, though they may be majorly powerful, you can also stunt your growth in a huge way trying to hold onto slavery past the Industrial era, so to get things like Factories and such you'll have to release them all and there goes that whole strategy potentially.
That's what should make this fun... you're going to see tons of ways to make an 'OP' combination and it will be fascinating to see if any are truly superior to another. And as you find more of them, you'll find more reasons to play a new game to see how the next combo you see pans out. That all should lead to lots of interesting discussions here.
If you're going to play to boost your slaves, have you then considered looking to combine with traits that boost capture chances?
Also, consider the opposite. If you don't play with slavery on, could you get away with selecting the opposing negative traits to those positive ones you're talking about? The ones that really reduce their value or even make them costly, and thus spend negative points that you won't suffer from?
All fractions round down in end results, though there are some places where decimals are taken into account but even those can have decimals past the tracking and it will round down to the decimal places it tracks to. Thus if a value tracks out 2 decimals and the end result is 3.5743, you'll only have 3.57. That's just how C++ works if you don't adjust it differently and has always been what Civ IV just allows to happen as a standard. It's easier that way.
Thus, when you have -1/4 crime, that's -1 crime per 4 population, not a decimalized amount. That's how those should be read. You don't get -1 crime until you have 4 pop. I've tried to make 1 per population a pretty strong value so that traits don't have THAT strong an influence over properties overall, at least not directly usually. Some of the indirect effects like all units getting +1 disease to plots and +1 disease to cities from a promotion they all get... that stuff can be very profound.
Yes, well put and was designed with that being the process in mind.
The AI does not select traits in DL like they select civics. They aren't looking at 'what's going to benefit me the most right now' and doing a huge analysis process over that. What they do, for both speed and effectiveness in design, is make their selections based on the flavors they were given in their leader definition XML compared to the flavors the traits were given, which were defined by the coloring of the value purchases those traits made on positive and negative values.
Thus, what happens is they select based on the play style they were programmed to use in the first place - they play to the strengths of the strategies they were programmed to use. There is some random element to it as well to further assist them to make their selections. Higher tiers are given more points so they'll tend to want the higher tiers when they can. Since they tend to select traits along flavored lines, you'll probably find they naturally select some very powerful combinations that can make them quite lethal.
This approach was challenged heavily but after implemented we got feedback about how effective the leader selections were at working together to make the leader 'too' strong, even with the normal traits. I'm thrilled to see how well this should work for leaders and another phase of development for this ongoing leader project would be to add more flavors for the leaders to have defined, at which point all of these traits will get their points somewhat recast, so that leaders will find even more uniqueness and varied strategic approaches.
Fermongu
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2017
- Messages
- 199
The next tier of traits, do they replace previous trait entirely or modifications are additive?
Example: tier 1 gives +1 food to great hunter, tier 2 gives +1 hammer to great hunter. So if I get tier 2 of trait, my great hunter will have +1 food AND +1 hammer or only +1 hammer?
Btw, I miss canine promos on nomadic
EDIT: in my first custom game with this option, game CTD without any message when I reached the turn when I should have my 1st trait selection choice.
Example: tier 1 gives +1 food to great hunter, tier 2 gives +1 hammer to great hunter. So if I get tier 2 of trait, my great hunter will have +1 food AND +1 hammer or only +1 hammer?
Btw, I miss canine promos on nomadic
EDIT: in my first custom game with this option, game CTD without any message when I reached the turn when I should have my 1st trait selection choice.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Additive
Sorry... may consider adding them to canines. Dogs are kinda fast already though.
I would love any repeatable crash saves. We have some kind of deeper problem with the mod right now than anything stemming from this that I was not aware of until now but that's not to say some crashes might not be related still so I'm happy to look to see if there's anything I can do about it.
I like how religious traits are fourway: two positives and two negatives, one trait makes three other traits unavailable:
Spiritual: All religions are equal.
Pious: My religion is most important.
Zealous: Other religions should be destroyed.
Anti-clerical: All religions should be annihilated.
Few traits don't lock other traits from being available:
Aerial, Hunter-Gatherer, Nomadic, Seafaring.
Spiritual: All religions are equal.
Pious: My religion is most important.
Zealous: Other religions should be destroyed.
Anti-clerical: All religions should be annihilated.
Few traits don't lock other traits from being available:
Aerial, Hunter-Gatherer, Nomadic, Seafaring.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Thank you. I really like that arrangement of religious traits as well. The 4 that don't lock out any other traits are the 4 that don't have an opposition trait. 3 positive traits for Earth, Water and Air (I MIGHT do one for fire at some point but I figure that's pretty much the whole normal military spectrum) and one oddball Negative Trait that was really only included because it had to be since something had to replace the one in the core. It's still got some blend opportunities with many other traits and is a good simple selection.
So Nomadic is for land units then?
By the way there are few religious/spiritual tech boosters in Information - Cosmic eras, as I noticed that you listed Transcendent era techs after Atomic era techs.
@pepper2000 could point more techs for religion related traits, but those techs that unlock religious civics should be counted: Synergetics and Cosmic Perspective.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Not by domain so much as it is for Explorers mostly, being Hunters and Scouts. The leader strongly appreciates mobility and puts a lot of emphasis on speed and travel... in a particularly militant manner.
Yes, while I'm working on the crashes and getting the text descriptions for each trait up here, please keep running lists on tech research or building production modifiers that you feel should be included. Although I didn't stick to this rule for myself on the military selections of those, otherwise I have kept all selections from the core XML files ONLY so that there would not be extreme complexities yet involving modules. If we keep some lists on the stuff in modules that should be included, eventually we can get those included in a modular safe manner.
All techs except for punks and some religions are in core.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
True. Not all of them I understand what they are for, particularly in the very late game. So keep the running lists on those (and any you think shouldn't be included in a list they're currently in) and we'll do some editing in a bit.
Now that you mention it, I'll probably have to look at some religious techs as needing to be adapted for modularization as well.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
On review of the Nomadic Trait, since you brought this up, the Nomadic promos go on all animals. If Canines aren't counted as an animal, I think we have a problem.
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