Please explain the "NC Start"

[MadDjinn]

If there's something that can be mined, I probably settled it, and given that I will go Mining first.



Given the choice between:

a) chop Library, build NC
b) hook up a luxury, sell it for 300, buy Library for 380

the choice is very easy. It's made even easier if you were able to sell a luxury on turn 10, since you know you'll get close to 300 on turn 41 to buy the CS/Education RAs.



Getting hammers as Monty is often a problem.

not sure what game you're playing, but my AIs never have 300g on turn 10. They are usually able to get that much by turn 30-40 (given their uses of it), but that's it. Even then, they don't always hit Philosophy early now.

 

[Martin Alvito]

not sure what game you're playing, but my AIs never have 300g on turn 10. They are usually able to get that much by turn 30-40 (given their uses of it), but that's it. Even then, they don't always hit Philosophy early now.

143 and 5/turn is the usual turn 10 sale.

I rush to Philosophy, since there's usually only one AI that has it at the time I want to start signing RAs. NC first helps there quite a bit.

 

[MouseyPounds]

They don't degrade, I pre-hammered out an Oxford university until it was only 1 turn once and when I finally hammered it out 50 turns later it was still 1 turn for me.

I'm curious though.. where did you get the idea that it would degrade?

Hammer decay is 2% per turn after 10 turns for units and 1% per turn after 50 turns for buildings, according to the XML. I haven't tested it in recent patches, though.

 

[MadDjinn]

Hammer decay is 2% per turn after 10 turns for units and 1% per turn after 50 turns for buildings, according to the XML. I haven't tested it in recent patches, though.

I'll have to check this out.

Keeping in mind that they left a tonne of Civ4 crapola in the XMLs that aren't being used.

 

[Tabarnak]

They don't degrade, I pre-hammered out an Oxford university until it was only 1 turn once and when I finally hammered it out 50 turns later it was still 1 turn for me.

I'm curious though.. where did you get the idea that it would degrade?

If you put hammers in wonders, you never lose them(except if you got beat by AI for world ones, but you get the same amount of money). For units and buildings, it's like Mouseypounds said.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=400695

 

[Robert Smith]

Y can sell 6 open border for 300 (50 each)

 

[joncnunn]

#1: Before the patch, NC first exclusively meant NC before any cities. With one of the liberty policies granting a free settler, it now also includes plans that use that free settler, then NC then more settlers.

#2: Late 30s to early 40s is what I experence

#3: Going this way I like using the starting warrior as the only scout for a while and building a monument first. I like smaller maps though.

Next build is a worker, then library which I prefer to cash rush if possible and then NC
I'm trying to time the free settler policy to arrive right after I build the NC and am building a settler as well so my 2nd & 3rd cities are built about the same time.

Also I manually move and lock workers into hammer productive tiles as the worker improves them.

For policies going this path I like Tradition then Liberty then the policy that increases wonder speed (it will help the NC). I then pick the free settler & free worker policies and try to have the tech for Temples before the next policy comes so that I then pick Legalism and get a free Temple in the capital. Then in whatever order seems most benifital at the time the landed elite, monarchy, golden age (under Liberty), and free great people policies.

I've had some difficulty searching for this because the search tool seems to think "NC" is too short a word to be searched. Could someone just give me a quick run-through of how the NC start works and/or direct me to a video or other link demonstrating it?

From what I understand, it essentially means building no or few cities until you have a library and NC in your capitol and then REXing. My questions are:

1. Do you actually wait to build any cities before the NC goes down then REX out as normal or build just a low number of cities so you can put libraries down quickly?

2. About what turn (standard rules) do you see your second city with an NC start? It seems like quite a while to wait if it's turn 50ish (though not saying it isn't worth it).

3. What's a general early build queue for capitol? I've been trying out Monument - Scout - Scout - Library - NC - Settler - Settler (changes slightly sometimes depending on what my tiles are).

 

[Alatar1313]

Thanks for all the info everyone has provided so far!

A couple more questions:

1. Do you bother with Oracle or Great Library in capitol or any other city? I've been trying to pick up one of the two but it's a lot of turns that my capitol isn't producing settlers. On the other hand, if I build like three settlers, some AI seems to get it before I do.

2. What's the recommended use for the Great Person from Meritocracy? I've been either getting a scientist to drop an academy in my capitol to get multiplied by the NC and university or an engineer to rush Oracle or Library.

 

[joncnunn]

Personally, I wouldn't bother building wonders until after your done building your first wave of settlers. (Which on smaller maps may be your only wave).

If your playing Egypt and also have Marble; a lot of wonders will be worthwhile.
If neither is the case, not many wonders will be useful.

There's lots of things you can do with that free great person. In my last game I used mine on a Great Merchant; many because a City State ally was demanding one.

Thanks for all the info everyone has provided so far!

A couple more questions:

1. Do you bother with Oracle or Great Library in capitol or any other city? I've been trying to pick up one of the two but it's a lot of turns that my capitol isn't producing settlers. On the other hand, if I build like three settlers, some AI seems to get it before I do.

2. What's the recommended use for the Great Person from Meritocracy? I've been either getting a scientist to drop an academy in my capitol to get multiplied by the NC and university or an engineer to rush Oracle or Library.

 

[walkerjks]

2. What's the recommended use for the Great Person from Meritocracy? I've been either getting a scientist to drop an academy in my capitol to get multiplied by the NC and university or an engineer to rush Oracle or Library.

GE seems to be the clear choice if you have a late wonder that is critical for the type of victory you are going for. As a result of using it on a late wonder, I usually skip Meritocracy until the last SP choice before I need it.

 

[Schalke 04]

What about a GS to make an Academy?

I haven't tested it, but I think having an Academy very early in a NC Capital could be worth it.

 

[gtsecc]

Can anyone post what turns they are getting each Tech and Policy?

 

[Robert Smith]

Can anyone post what turns they are getting each Tech and Policy?

Here is very nice post with turn for tech. and policy order

 

[MadDjinn]

Here is very nice post with turn for tech. and policy order

er, that's pre-patch

 

[grandad1982]

Can anyone tell me if Aristocracy affects the build speed of the NC and other national wonders?

 

[joncnunn]

Yes it does. (I Played as Egypt shortly after the patch came out)

In fact if playing Egypt with Marble and Aristocracy, there is a 60% increased production building the National College. (20% each from all three sources)

Can anyone tell me if Aristocracy affects the build speed of the NC and other national wonders?

 

[grandad1982]

Cheers.

 

[RedRover57]

@ Martin

How do you have a luxury for sale on turn 10? You must be settling right on the luxury and it would have to be a mine (gold, silver, gems) and then research Mining first? Doesn't this often place your capitol on a sub-optimal spot that could really hurt later? I guess this is a Diety strategy where you need all the help you can get to start?

 

[Martin Alvito]

Yes, you need a luxury that can be mined for a turn 10 resale.

As far as suboptimal location/burning a turn: I really don't care. If you loan the 5 per turn back out, that's 143+112=255 that you wouldn't otherwise have. For perspective, that's half of El Dorado, which is considered horribly imbalanced.

It's the difference between Friends and Ally status with a Cultural, which makes a big difference that early. Alternately, it enables you to buy Friends with a Cultural and still usually have enough cash for a Library if you're going NC first. Finally, it permits purchasing a Granary in the starts where a Granary is crazy.

If you put all the pieces together correctly, you can have Scholasticism as early as turn 60 in an OCC. That's a huge shot in the arm for early research, and it lets you tear up the Classical era and acquire the Medieval techs that are crucial to your game in a hurry. In the last Arabia OCC I played, I had Currency around turn 60 and Education on turn 70 without having to bother with blocking for Research Agreements.

 

[walkerjks]

If you put all the pieces together correctly, you can have Scholasticism as early as turn 60 in an OCC. That's a huge shot in the arm for early research, and it lets you tear up the Classical era and acquire the Medieval techs that are crucial to your game in a hurry. In the last Arabia OCC I played, I had Currency around turn 60 and Education on turn 70 without having to bother with blocking for Research Agreements.

Are you bulbing Theology to open up Patronage that early?

Thinking out loud - research mining, than to Theology. Buy a library (borrow if necessary) to speed up NC. Don't go crazy with SPs early as you want the Patronage ones to be cheap. As soon as you have the timing down so you can open Medieval and get a SP together, friend or ally (borrow if necessary) with a cultural CS. Setup some RAs along the way.

Now your science is rolling in, your culture is healthy, and you're poised to take full advantage of whatever cultural CS alliances you can scrounge up, which will simply accelerate your culture and science gain.

Is that close?