Policies: The time has come!

[Stalker0]

Comments inline:

Opener: Bonus +33% vs. Barbarians, encampment notifications and culture for barbarian units killed and for each conquered city.

--Opener is good, and we could still probably include the scaling bonus idea if we want assuming we go with "culture remains in opener".

Imperialism: No Isolation unhappiness. A Free Settler appears in the capital.

--I could see this one. No isolation isn't a super bonus, but it does help keep expansion under control.

Feudalism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce that city's unhappiness from occupation by 30%, garrisoned puppeted cities gain +30% gold. Requires Imperialism.

--I have no issues with help out puppeted and occupied cities, but I don't think we should make it all about that.

Discipline: Units gain +10% combat strength when adjacent to a friendly unit. Killing enemy units heals the victorious unit by 20.

--My stance is still that we don't need more war bonuses, but incentives to war. I can beat up my enemies just fine...but meanwhile I am losing all of that sweet tradition or liberty bonus...turn by turn by turn. Warring needs to give me something to combat that.


Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Whenever you conquer a civilization's capital, start a Golden Age. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era.​

--I wonder if we can expand this finisher so it doesn't just kick in once in a while. GA when you conquer a CS as well? (probably too strong). What about just recieving X GA points whenever you conquer any city?


Overall I still stick to my original asset of honor, even with this version. This version gives me some nice warring bonuses...but it is no match for the raw turn by turn bonuses of what tradition could provide imo.

I still strongly believe the tree should give some fun yield incentives to war.

 

[Gazebo]

Honestly, I think a free worker and +25% to improvements would feel a bit more natural in the Honor tree – being able to build roads to newly conquered cities feels a bit more honorable than planting one down yourself.

 

[mystikx21]

I don't know why people can't agree the opener is a policy. That's very straightforward. You have to select it and don't get to select another policy. The finisher isn't a "policy". Because you don't select it and it does not cost culture.

 

[ExpiredReign]

 

[Stalker0]

Alright, I am going to break down some of my favorite parts of Wodhann's v.6 Conquest and then combine it with my own ideas to see what comes up.

1) No Isolation unhappiness: This both helps peaceful expansion and conquest, a nice good side bonus when combined with something else.
2) A Free Settler appears in the capital: I like more and more the concept of this tree going from "war expansion" to "expand any way you can do it". That seems like a good theme to me.
3) A free ranged unit spawns with new settled cities: I like this idea. Peaceful expansionists get a garrison, warriors can spend some food/hammers on a settler and get some war return out of the deal. Helps deal with a bit of unruliness. Overall a nice touch.
4) Whenever you conquer a civilization's capital, start a Golden Age: I like the "big win" concept for getting a good conquest. Also helps to recover yourself a bit after you finish off a civ and have taken on all of that unhappiness burden and the like.


However, I still think the tree is missing some things:

1) Yields. In vanilla, Tradition and Liberty are actually better war trees than honor...because they get better tech with more science, more units with production, more happiness with infrastructure, etc. For honor to compete, it has to get these things too.

I think we do that through yields by warfare and conquest...combined with perhaps a few passive bonuses. The goal is to make conflict very profitable.

2) Peaceful benefits. It is a reasonable expectation for a player to be peaceful the vast majority of the game, but I don't think it is as reasonable to expect them to war nonstop. So we need to balance those war yields with some advantages to help the civ when they are not warring. If Honor is balanced with tradition when warring...but gets nothing when at peace...then it is still not a balanced tree.


So with that in mind here is my second version of the Conquest Tree.


I think I can get behind the idea of an "expand by any method" tree with this conquest idea, so let me see if I can incorporate some of the ideas I had around "war giving you benefits" with some of the work you guys have done so far.


Opener: +33% bonus to barbs, encampment notifications, gain culture when defeating barbs, gain +3% bonus to military unit production for every policy in Honor taken.

--Returning mostly to the original opener, plus I am sweetening the pot with the escalating bonus I am trying. The idea is to counteract the natural production advantages of the other trees by making units cheaper to produce overall.

Collectivism: Free settler, no isolation happiness

--I like this one from Wodhann, looks solid.

Feudalism: New settled cities gain a free barracks, and free ranged unit spawns at the city. Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies each provide +5XP
-- The barracks, etc benefit mirrors a little bit of the "+50% XP" policy in the base, but does it in a way that peaceful and warring players can enjoy. Giving out a free barracks just shaves off some hammers for the expansionist.

Warrior Code: Garrisons provide +10% science, culture, and gold in a city when the Civ is at peace. Garrisons reduce unrest by 15% and occupied city happiness by 30%.

--I would like to garrisons strongly useful for a peace and a war effect. We will certainly need to tweak the numbers, its just the concept right now.

Military Caste: Gain gold from killing units. Pillaging provides culture as well as gold.

--We go to war for gold! Also concept of stealing cultural treasures adds some more active yields to warfare.

Hero of the People: A Great General appears outside your capital. Great Generals generate +5 Golden Age Points per turn. Citadels provide +2 science and hammers.

--I would really like to see other uses for great generals, especially during peace time. So a general boost to the unit and their great improvement.

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Gain 50 GA points whenever you conquer a city. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era.[/indent]

--Same concept of Wodhann, but I went for a bonus to all conquest instead of capitals. Lets see what people think.

 

[Gazebo]

Regarding GA, why not have a set amount per city, and double that for capitals?

A few ideas for ways to bring in yields:

- Extra yield % from city connections (cities connected to the capital get x% more production/gold/culture etc.) - reinforces the 'all roads lead to Rome' nature of expansion.

- Yields from forts and citadels - science, perhaps?

- Internal trade routes grant more (again, reinforcing connectivity and 'internal' nature of Honor)

- Extra yield from buildings that reduce disorder (colosseum, walls, etc.) - a bit boring, but also a bit nice.

G

 

[Stalker0]

Honestly, I think a free worker and +25% to improvements would feel a bit more natural in the Honor tree – being able to build roads to newly conquered cities feels a bit more honorable than planting one down yourself.

My thought was this for flavor:

Tradition is the "Wonderous Supercity" tree. Its about making the capital the best it can be, and focusing on wonders.

Honor (or Conquest) is the "Active Expansion tree". This is the tree you take if you don't want to sit back and build up, but want to actively go get cities, land, etc.

Liberty in my mind will be the "Civ Infrastructure" tree. I have these cities, now I want to build them up. For example. I think the worker policy still makes sense here. Also I think improving internal trade routes would make a lot of sense. Certain buildings might also get stronger with liberty.

 

[Wodhann]

My thought was this for flavor:

Tradition is the "Wonderous Supercity" tree. Its about making the capital the best it can be, and focusing on wonders.

Honor (or Conquest) is the "Active Expansion tree". This is the tree you take if you don't want to sit back and build up, but want to actively go get cities, land, etc.

Liberty in my mind will be the "Civ Infrastructure" tree. I have these cities, now I want to build them up. For example. I think the worker policy still makes sense here. Also I think improving internal trade routes would make a lot of sense. Certain buildings might also get stronger with liberty.

You got very close to what I'm thinking, which I'm pleased to hear.

The only thing we're differing here is the fact that I think "wisdom" (if we do change liberty to be this way, I don't think we should keep liberty as a name - too confusing for people who are used to the original concept) should be about building wonders as well. It's the "building" tree, it's all about infrastucture and yields, and edifying an efficient empire overall. It doesn't care how large or small your empire is.

Tradition to me is about growth and safety. It's more or less the "opposite" of conquest: rather than expanding, it's about growing what you already have, and rather than taking what others have, it's about defending what you have. The internal trade route thing should go here I think (perhaps we can have a policy that increases the amount of internal trade routes that can go to each city from 1 to 2, if that's even possible).

To do an analogy:

Tradition is the small kid with a concrete house and a plastic fork.
Wisdom is the medium-sized kid with a high-tech wooden house with security cameras installed.
Conquest is the big kid with a straw house and a giant club.

It's a silly example, but helps you get the gist of it.

 

[Stalker0]

You got very close to what I'm thinking, which I'm pleased to hear.

The only thing we're differing here is the fact that I think "wisdom" (if we do change liberty to be this way, I don't think we should keep liberty as a name - too confusing for people who are used to the original concept) should be about building wonders as well. It's the "building" tree, it's all about infrastucture and yields, and edifying an efficient empire overall. It doesn't care how large or small your empire is.

Tradition to me is about growth and safety. It's more or less the "opposite" of conquest: rather than expanding, it's about growing what you already have, and rather than taking what others have, it's about defending what you have. The internal trade route thing should go here I think (perhaps we can have a policy that increases the amount of internal trade routes that can go to each city from 1 to 2, if that's even possible).

To do an analogy:

Tradition is the small kid with a concrete house and a plastic fork.
Wisdom is the medium-sized kid with a high-tech wooden house with security cameras installed.
Conquest is the big kid with a straw house and a giant club.

It's a silly example, but helps you get the gist of it.

I could see the aristocracy concept moved to liberty (or wisdom). Internal Trade route I would debate more...but that can wait when we actually start looking at liberty (wisdom).


But that said, I don't want to start that one yet! I really want to get the community comfortable with one tree that we can use as a power baseline, else we will just go back and forth and back and forth.

 

[Funak]

Just a minor note: In my opinion we should stick to openers either giving culture or not giving culture, because the opener with culture is always going to have faster policies.
However about the old honor opener and its flaws(Culture not adding any borderexpands) didn't CEP fix that? Made culture from barbkills add to the culture of the closest city or something like that? (This would really help the aztecs aswell, which is nice)

The thing I really don't like about Wodhanns verson of honor is the policy "Feudalism", it does nothing for anexed cities after you've build the courthouse and kinda promotes keeping the city as a puppet(which could be an option, sure, but it shouldn't be THE option imho)

Also considering how many people are questioning that free setler, you could just replace it with something else, there are still plenty of conquesty things you could add (maybe something that actually helps you win a war? Because right now the only thing you have for that is discipline?) unique promotions, improved citadels, improved pillaging, stuff like that.

Edit: Didn't actually see you add that 'heal on kill' thing that I suggested a while back, good work on that one, I like it.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Tradition: Receive a free chunk of culture (based on population) every time your capital grows. Encourages growth (the theme of Tradition) without being a static rate.

What about something like "Get 25% of the hammer cost of every completed building in the capital"? The interesting side-effect is that it basically "punishes" building units and rewards a "mega-capital", both very much in theme with Wodhann's idea of Tradition.

Liberty: Every tile acquired by a city through natural border growth grants a chunk of culture (based on the gold value of the tile acquired). More cities = more tiles being acquired, thus the bonus growth with the number of cities.

An idea could be something like: +1 culture for every connected city and internal trade routes and +25 x era culture immediately on a city. This rewards the city-building immediately (to keep up with the other openers) and has a slow but steady bonus that will pay off over the long term and benefit from culture multipliers (again, that's something that fits Wodhann's themes).

The thing I really don't like about Wodhanns verson of honor is the policy "Feudalism", it does nothing for anexed cities after you've build the courthouse and kinda promotes keeping the city as a puppet(which could be an option, sure, but it shouldn't be THE option imho)

I feel puppet cities are a bit weak overall. Considering that Honor/Conquest will have a lot more cities it's good to reward puppeting. With this tree, you will likely have the most cities, so you'll have the highest amount of micro-management unless you puppet.

By making puppeting better, you give people an incentive to do so beyond "I don't want to bother" and it becomes more of a gameplay choice - do you want the extra gold (great to finance a large empire and focus on your core cities) or get the extra control and hammers, culture and science (since the finisher helps offsetting the culture penalty, not puppeting becomes better for Honor than before).

Edit: Didn't actually see you add that 'heal on kill' thing that I suggested a while back, good work on that one, I like it.

I like it, too. It feels like a nice way to just make Honor better at fighting without making them stronger outright (which is a bit boring).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I don't think merging honor and liberty is going to work. Civ Nights did that, but its trees have 12/14 policies, not 5. I doubt that with so few options you can fully develop the theme for both peaceful expansion and warmongering, which are two different playstyles imo.

 

[Funak]

I don't think merging honor and liberty is going to work. Civ Nights did that, but its trees have 12/14 policies, not 5. I doubt that with so few options you can fully develop the theme for both peaceful expansion and warmongering, which are two different playstyles imo.

That's why everyone have been slowly removing all traces of liberty from his honortree if you haven't noticed it yet.

But don't tell him, I don't think he is on to us yet.

 

[Funak]

I feel puppet cities are a bit weak overall. Considering that Honor/Conquest will have a lot more cities it's good to reward puppeting. With this tree, you will likely have the most cities, so you'll have the highest amount of micro-management unless you puppet.

By making puppeting better, you give people an incentive to do so beyond "I don't want to bother" and it becomes more of a gameplay choice - do you want the extra gold (great to finance a large empire and focus on your core cities) or get the extra control and hammers, culture and science (since the finisher helps offsetting the culture penalty, not puppeting becomes better for Honor than before).

Guess that's where our opinions differ, I don't think you should promote any automated play.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Guess that's where our opinions differ, I don't think you should promote any automated play.

I don't think it's so much promoting it as keeping it viable to some extent. At the moment, non-puppeted cities are just better in almost all cases.

Which means if you like wars, but dislike micro-management, you're forced to play sub-optimally.

If we hit the balance spot I wish to hit, both a viable: the guy who likes micro annexes and builds units there, the guy who likes the "bigger view" uses the money to either buy units or boost his economy. Both end in a similar spot, but through different means that are fun to each of them.

I do think that a policy that only benefits puppeted cities might be lop-sided, but I don't think throwing out effects that allow you to basically choose your favoured amount of micro is good either.

The problem here is finding something thematic that rewards annexing without improving all cities.

 

[klokwerk]

Guess that's where our opinions differ, I don't think you should promote any automated play.

I don't know, puppeting cities makes sense when you're taking your 10th city. At some point, it becomes tedious to manage all those cities every turn, so having well managed puppets looks good in my book.

I agree with Lord Tirian on that point.

 

[klokwerk]

I like the new Conquest tree but I somewhat agree with Stalker we need some kind of yield bonus for Conquest to make it competitive with the other 2 and it must be available at peace too. Military Production looks like the best option...

I like most of the other ideas a lot too. No isolation unhappiness is great (both at peace and during conquest), free settler helps after you raze a city or at peace too, free ranged unit after settling is a great idea, golden age after taking a capital is great too.

Opener: +33% bonus to barbs, encampment notifications, gain culture when defeating barbs and for each conquered city.

-- Fun and useful. Rewards for conquest too, not only for barbarians. I like it.

Imperialism: No isolation happiness, a free settler appears in the capital.

-- It will help a lot both after razing a city and when you overextend from conquest. Seems great.

Feudalism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce that city's unhappiness from occupation by 30%, garrisoned puppeted cities gain +30% gold. Requires Imperialism.

-- Seems great to me. Helps a lot with conquest.

Discipline: Units gain +10% combat strength when adjacent to a friendly unit. Killing enemy units heals the victorious unit by 20.

-- I like the healing idea

Military Caste: Gold purchase for military units -20%. +20 % military building (like barracks...) and defense building production. A free ranged unit spawns with new settled cities. Requires Discipline.

-- My addition fits the theme and adds more relevant bonuses available at peace but only if you went deep in the tree. It adds something for builders. That way the policy is helpful even if you didn't manage to take any city. It gives you the yield bonus Stalker was talking about.

Warrior Code: A free General appears outside your capital. Population reduction from city capture is reduced to 25% and unrest is reduced by 25%. Requires Military Caste.

-- I like it. Maybe put the "defense building production bonus" here and keep the "military building production bonus" in Military Caste, or the other way...

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Starts a Golden Age each time you take the first capital of an enemy civ.
Gain +25 % (?) of GA points needed for Golden Age whenever you conquer a city. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era.

-- rewards you with a Golden Age for taken a true capital (the first capital, those you need for military victory). Gives GA point too every time you take a city.

 

[klokwerk]

<double post>

 

[mystikx21]

However, I still think the tree is missing some things:

1) Yields. In vanilla, Tradition and Liberty are actually better war trees than honor...because they get better tech with more science, more units with production, more happiness with infrastructure, etc. For honor to compete, it has to get these things too.

I think we do that through yields by warfare and conquest...combined with perhaps a few passive bonuses. The goal is to make conflict very profitable.

2) Peaceful benefits. It is a reasonable expectation for a player to be peaceful the vast majority of the game, but I don't think it is as reasonable to expect them to war nonstop. So we need to balance those war yields with some advantages to help the civ when they are not warring. If Honor is balanced with tradition when warring...but gets nothing when at peace...then it is still not a balanced tree.


So with that in mind here is my second version of the Conquest Tree.


I think I can get behind the idea of an "expand by any method" tree with this conquest idea, so let me see if I can incorporate some of the ideas I had around "war giving you benefits" with some of the work you guys have done so far.


Opener: +33% bonus to barbs, encampment notifications, gain culture when defeating barbs, gain +3% bonus to military unit production for every policy in Honor taken.

--Returning mostly to the original opener, plus I am sweetening the pot with the escalating bonus I am trying. The idea is to counteract the natural production advantages of the other trees by making units cheaper to produce overall.

Collectivism: Free settler, no isolation happiness

--I like this one from Wodhann, looks solid.

Feudalism: New settled cities gain a free barracks, and free ranged unit spawns at the city. Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies each provide +5XP
-- The barracks, etc benefit mirrors a little bit of the "+50% XP" policy in the base, but does it in a way that peaceful and warring players can enjoy. Giving out a free barracks just shaves off some hammers for the expansionist.

Warrior Code: Garrisons provide +10% science, culture, and gold in a city when the Civ is at peace. Garrisons reduce unrest by 15% and occupied city happiness by 30%.

--I would like to garrisons strongly useful for a peace and a war effect. We will certainly need to tweak the numbers, its just the concept right now.

Military Caste: Gain gold from killing units. Pillaging provides culture as well as gold.

--We go to war for gold! Also concept of stealing cultural treasures adds some more active yields to warfare.

Hero of the People: A Great General appears outside your capital. Great Generals generate +5 Golden Age Points per turn. Citadels provide +2 science and hammers.

--I would really like to see other uses for great generals, especially during peace time. So a general boost to the unit and their great improvement.

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Gain 50 GA points whenever you conquer a city. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era.[/indent]

--Same concept of Wodhann, but I went for a bonus to all conquest instead of capitals. Lets see what people think.

Agreed on the positive points.

I agree that the main weakness is the yields. One of the benefits of honor currently is the gold on kills and culture from barbarian kills, and those should be preserved. Objects like this are active warfare bonuses, which aren't as good as the passive bonuses available in tradition or liberty, but they are beneficial for conquerors and aggressive play.

I don't think the free barracks is necessary on top of a free ranged unit. A bonus to the barracks+ is fine.

 

[Wodhann]

This is very close to what I would consider a finished version.


Conquest v0.9 (... I think)

Opener: Bonus +33% vs. Barbarians, encampment notifications and culture for barbarian units killed and for each conquered city.

Imperialism: No Isolation unhappiness. A Free Settler appears in the capital.

Feudalism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce that city's unhappiness from occupation by 30%, garrisoned puppeted cities gain +20% to all yields. Requires Imperialism. (Numbers can be tweaked - but I think it's safe to just apply it to all yields. You don't control the city after all)

Looting: Gain gold for each unit killed. Killing enemy units heals the victorious unit by 20.

Military Caste: Units gain +10% combat strength when adjacent to a friendly unit. A free ranged unit spawns with new settled cities. Requires Looting.

Warrior Code: A free General appears outside your capital. Population reduction from city capture is reduced to 25% and unrest is reduced by 25%. Requires Military Caste.

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Whenever you conquer a civilization's capital, start a Golden Age. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era. (Let's keep it elegant guys. We don't really need a whole per city golden age thing. Let Conquest players work for their golden ages.)​