Policies

[Thalassicus]

So a few have said Aristocracy is weak at 2, others say it's too strong at 3, so I'll just leave it alone for a while and see how things play out. Usually when an equal number say it's both too strong and too weak we've found the right middle ground.

We have to be careful with United Front since any city-state bonus scales to map size. On a normal size map it has an average potential of 5/city, about the same as the old Communism. (16 citystates total, 1/3 usually conquered by other AIs, leaving ~10 for the player to ally with.)


@Seek
If it's a problem with the name, the best solution is to just change the names around. The downside is it can get confusing for people. I previously changed names in the Tradition tree, and no one knew how to refer to the wonder-boosting policy.

I've rearranged the names to this:

• Free Speech increases culture.
• Constitutions defend citizens.
• Democracies create Great People faster.
• Universal Suffrage makes people happier.

• Free Speech and Constitution lead to Democracy.
• Civil Society leads to Universal Suffrage.

Vanilla:

• Free Speech reduces military costs.
• Constitutions increase culture from world wonders.
• Universal Suffrage improves military defenses.

 

[Zaldron]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask or not, because I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature. Is it possible to have Oligarchy give the bonus if there's a unit in the city rather than just if it's fortified? I discovered that in order to get the bonus I have to fortify my archer each turn, have the city shoot, and then have my archer shoot second. Having the city fire without the archer being fortified doesn't grant the +100% bonus.

 

[Txurce]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask or not, because I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature. Is it possible to have Oligarchy give the bonus if there's a unit in the city rather than just if it's fortified? I discovered that in order to get the bonus I have to fortify my archer each turn, have the city shoot, and then have my archer shoot second. Having the city fire without the archer being fortified doesn't grant the +100% bonus.

It's not a bug. Oligarchy works with a garrison - and that's why you have to "fortify" the unit first.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Just one minor thing. From a Real Life & Game-play perspective, I was thinking that it might be good to have Monarchy require both Aristocracy & Legalism & prerequisites. It might even help to tone down the rush of Wonder Building that I've been seeing in my games lately ;-).

Aussie.

 

[Thalassicus]

Legalism's effect doesn't really make much sense at all.

Legalism
Strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.

Actually, about half the policies don't jive with their effects. I do try and fix this whenever adjusting a policy, but unless a policy needs gameplay changes in some way, I usually leave it alone. It's a matter of prioritizing limited time.

 

[Ahriman]

Legalism does make some sense to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

Key aspects include: equality before the law (which would make people happier, and less prone to rebel), and strong central authority to an institution (which would build up the economy in the capital).

 

[Thalassicus]

Oh, I was referring to the free culture buildings policy. I have no clue what to realistically call that policy, if you have any ideas?

 

[Ahriman]

Oh, sorry I was mixing them up. I thought Legalism gave less unhappiness and more gold in the capital.

[The fact that it is very hard to remember which policy is which is I think further evidence for the fact that in many cases the flavor link between name policy effect is very weak. Or, just evidence that I have a bad memory.]

The free culture building policy is harder to think of a decent name for - in part because most of the conservative/traditional culture-boosts have operated through religion, but we don't want to intrude on Piety if we can avoid it.

A few thoughts (none are a great fit):
State religion. [Idea: state support of religion means the religion provides culture without the state having to pay for it.]
Bureaucracy. [Idea: centralized institution-building.]
Primogeniture. [Idea: supports establishment of long-term familial political institutions.]
Absolutism. [Idea: concentrated state power creates a central political institution.]
Confederation. [Idea: increased political power for a small group of member cities/states]

 

[Thalassicus]

The mixup is because I moved the policy names around from vanilla. That's the only downside of renaming things, it causes confusion.

So what are some possible names for these effects?

Garrisons - ?
Food - ?
Culture buildings - ?
Gold/happiness - Legalism
Wonders - ?

 

[Ahriman]

Oligarchy makes some sense to me as boosting city defenses; basically the oligarchs themselves have a lot of wealth and power and so are willing to divert extra resources into defending their stuff - which is mostly in the city.

Landed Elite makes some sense for the food boost; you have a bunch of Feudal lords with big country estates and castles who are able to produce a lot of food and expropriate it from the peasants to send to the cities; if your various barons have castles, then they have more powerful over the farmers and can expropriate more food.

Monarchy or Absolutism makes some sense for the wonder policy. I'm thinking Louis XIV and Versailles or Ludwig the Mad of Barvaria; if you have a lot of power as a monarch, you can divert it towards shiny vanity projects.

 

[Thalassicus]

Would the vanity-projects concept make sense for the monuments/temples policy?

 

[Ahriman]

Maybe. Kindof Ozymandias associations? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias

You could have Absolutism for the free culture infrastructure and Monarchy for the wonders, it wouldn't be great but it would be ok.

 

[Txurce]

Legalism's effect doesn't really make much sense at all.



Actually, about half the policies don't jive with their effects. I do try and fix this whenever adjusting a policy, but unless a policy needs gameplay changes in some way, I usually leave it alone. It's a matter of prioritizing limited time.

Legalism does make some sense to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

Key aspects include: equality before the law (which would make people happier, and less prone to rebel), and strong central authority to an institution (which would build up the economy in the capital).

Oligarchy makes some sense to me as boosting city defenses; basically the oligarchs themselves have a lot of wealth and power and so are willing to divert extra resources into defending their stuff - which is mostly in the city.

Landed Elite makes some sense for the food boost; you have a bunch of Feudal lords with big country estates and castles who are able to produce a lot of food and expropriate it from the peasants to send to the cities; if your various barons have castles, then they have more powerful over the farmers and can expropriate more food.

Monarchy or Absolutism makes some sense for the wonder policy. I'm thinking Louis XIV and Versailles or Ludwig the Mad of Barvaria; if you have a lot of power as a monarch, you can divert it towards shiny vanity projects.

They all make vague sense - vague enough that 4 of the 5 policies could switch names and it wouldn't make things more or less clear. Legalism would work as the present Monarchy, and just about any of the others works about as well as "Legalism." The only problem with all this is that by switching names around you're possibly really confusing people who play vanilla as well.

 

[bwoww78]

unrelated (kind of) but i felt the need to point this out: the decision you made to adjust food/production/happiness bonuses to defense buildings in three different related policy trees (tradition/liberty/honor, respectively) was a great one. now, at least for the player, those buildings are a lot more useful and likely to make my build queue when otherwise they were very low priority.

while i'm not sure on how this affects AI play or how other players feel about it, I thought I should give props when its due. thanks

 

[Thalassicus]

Some other thoughts for the monuments/temples policy:

• Lore
• Rituals
• Rites
• Ceremony

 

[Ahriman]

Legalism would work as the present Monarchy, and just about any of the others works about as well as "Legalism."

Not quite. I don't see what Legalism would have to do with Wonders, and I don't see what Landed Elite would have to do with boosting the capital.
I agree that none of these are well-focused though.

Some other thoughts for the monuments/temples policy:

• Lore
• Rituals
• Rites
• Ceremony

The problem is, those don't really feel like Policies, government types or nation-level institutions.

 

[Ahriman]

Another possibility; I'm thinking of these big free investments as being like Pharonic Egypt, where society pays for a big monumental tome for the leader. So, maybe something like Ceremonial Burial for some civ series flavor? Feels more like a policy.

 

[Txurce]

Would the vanity-projects concept make sense for the monuments/temples policy?

"Organized religion served to justify the central authority, which in turn possessed the right to collect taxes in return for providing social and security services to the state."

This statement justifies the present use of Legalism about as well as any of the other definitions in Tradition.

 

[Ahriman]

"Organized religion served to justify the central authority, which in turn possessed the right to collect taxes in return for providing social and security services to the state."

This statement justifies the present use of Legalism about as well as any of the other definitions in Tradition.

No it doesn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)
Central authority wasn't really justified by organized religion. Legalism is fairly secular as a concept (given the time), it is pretty much the opposite of Divine Right of Kings.

 

[Thalassicus]

So, maybe something like Ceremonial Burial for some civ series flavor? Feels more like a policy.

Right, that's what I was getting at with the list of words - evoking a general concept. I think in broad connections/associations/networks instead of one-to-one exactness... if that makes sense.