[POLL] - We'll surely get Maya, Persia and Rome. What will be the last Classical era civ?

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Eagle_Pursuit once again quicker than I am. Perhaps you should rename yourself to Eagle_Vanguard, since clearly you are leading the way here.

Yes, we are delaying the final culture reveal until tomorrow as we need to make some tweaks.
So place your bets, people, who will it be?

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Agh the suspense! Ok well the only thing I'm sure about is its agrarian it has to be right? I think Yamato might be where they are going but I'm just gonna take my own stab and say Thracians.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Eagler_Pursuit once again quicker than I am. Perhaps you should rename yourself to Eagle_Vanguard, since clearly you are leading the way here.

It's actually a reference to the motto 'Aquila non captat muscus'. The eagle does not catch flies, ergo the eagle pursues great things.

 

[Gwydden]

Agh the suspense! Ok well the only thing I'm sure about is its agrarian it has to be right? I think Yamato might be where they are going but I'm just gonna take my own stab and say Thracians.

The current breakdown by region is three European (Greeks, Romans, Goths), one North African (Carthage), one Subsaharan African (Aksum), one West Asian (Persians), one Central Asian (Huns), and one Mesoamerican (Mayans). I hope and expect there will be no more European civs, since there are no particuarly good choices left. It's too early for Southeast Asia, North America, or Oceania, so the only major regions left are East Asia and South America. Alphabetically, they've passed the best picks for South America (Paracas and Nazca), so only Yamato and Silla in East Asia are left as likely picks. I would guess Silla to be a Merchant civ, hence I'll play it safe and say Yamato for my guess.

 

[conorbebe]

Can someone please explain to me why the Yamato would make for a better Agrarian culture than any other from that region? From what I can tell, agriculture was slow to develop in Japan, and when it finally did kick off, it was only a result of Korean migrants and the transmission of their tools and techniques into the peninsula. I also can't find evidence of any particularly remarkable innovations or accomplishments related to the cultivation of land from that era of Japan, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

 

[Siptah]

Can someone please explain to me why the Yamato would make for a better Agrarian culture than any other from that region? From what I can tell, agriculture was slow to develop in Japan, and when it finally did kick off, it was only a result of Korean migrants and the transmission of their tools and techniques into the peninsula. I also can't find evidence of any particularly remarkable innovations or accomplishments related to the cultivation of land from that era of Japan, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

I think the more important developments, for example grand scale rice plantations and domestication of several animals, happened pre-Yamato in Japan, yet in a timeframe that would borderline fit HKs classical era. So maybe it is not just a representation of Yamato, but of ancient Japan in general named Yamato, as this has some name recognition among strategy gamers of the Age of Empires generation. Ancient Japanese was very wealthy in food supplies though and if you look for population estimations, you see it rising between 1000 BC and 500 AD significantly. I don‘t have similar data for Korea though.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Can someone please explain to me why the Yamato would make for a better Agrarian culture than any other from that region? From what I can tell, agriculture was slow to develop in Japan, and when it finally did kick off, it was only a result of Korean migrants and the transmission of their tools and techniques into the peninsula. I also can't find evidence of any particularly remarkable innovations or accomplishments related to the cultivation of land from that era of Japan, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

I guess in the context of Japanese history its this period that sees an explosion in agriculture and turns Japan from a land of mostly hunter-gatherers into rice farmers and the romanticised ideal of agrarian life would be a recurring theme in Japan going forward.

 

[Patine]

I'm not sold on Aztecs and Inca as Early Modern civs. Chronologically, that's really pushing it, and I suspect there will be generic gunpowder units in the Early Modern era that won't fit those civilizations. For Early Modern natives I could see something like the Iroquois or Puebloans, while the Comanche might make a good Late Modern pick.

I hope we don't get another European civ for the Classical era.

But the Zulus would (as a hypothetical possibility) be early modern too, chronologically, and they weren't really gun-users themselves.

 

[Gwydden]

Can someone please explain to me why the Yamato would make for a better Agrarian culture than any other from that region? From what I can tell, agriculture was slow to develop in Japan, and when it finally did kick off, it was only a result of Korean migrants and the transmission of their tools and techniques into the peninsula. I also can't find evidence of any particularly remarkable innovations or accomplishments related to the cultivation of land from that era of Japan, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

The introduction of rice enabled the existence of Japanese civilization, since it is a high yield, high density crop and the Japanese archipelago has relatively little arable land. Rice was essential to early state formation and land usage, and it was used as a currency of sorts in multiple periods of Japanese history. The Japanese even developed several local strains of rice, since continental variants did not grow all that well in Honshu. This all started in some form or another either in the Yamato period or within the Classical timeframe. The Yamato clan became preeminent largely by monopolizing agricultural land.

Japan could conceivably fit any of the seven archetypes depending on which period you choose. Agrarian would be good for any, but eclipsed by other characteristics of the culture in most except this one. It's not that Silla couldn't be Agrarian, but that there are other aspects of that civilization that stand out more. The same isn't necessarily true of Yamato.

But the Zulus would (as a hypothetical possibility) be early modern too, chronologically, and they weren't really gun-users themselves.

The Zulus did use guns, albeit badly and not extensively. It's not what they are known for, but it wouldn't feel as out of place to me as if the Aztecs did it. But either way, I think it is more important that the Zulus fit the Late Modern era chronologically, at least, while Aztecs/Inca don't for Early Modern.

 

[conorbebe]

So in other words, the most interesting aspect of Yamato Japan was their adoption of agricultural techniques already in use across the continent? Yeah, that doesn't really do it for me...

 

[j51]

I'm hoping it's someone they skipped alphabetically (Gauls, or Han) because they were still ironing out the kinks on what they played like. I doubt it thought. In that case, I'd rather have Silla than Yayoi; save pre-Meji Japan for later.

 

[j51]

I think someone mentioned the Yue earlier. That could be cool.

 

[Siptah]

So in other words, the most interesting aspect of Yamato Japan was their adoption of agricultural techniques already in use across the continent?.

No, not really.
And still, if it were, adapting a technique and developing a lasting legacy with/through it is usually more important than being first with an invention.

 

[conorbebe]

Nazca would have definitely been my 1st choice for the mystery civ. They're from an as of yet unrepresented continent, and are a perfect fit for an Agrarian culture with their puquios. Not to mention, the Nazca are reasonably well-known as far as South American cultures go.

The Gauls and Han are also notable by their absence this era, and are total shoo-ins for DLC cultures post-launch.

No, not really.
And still, if it were, adapting a technique and developing a lasting legacy with/through it is usually more important than being first with an invention.

What exactly does that mean though? What is so unique about farming practices in Japan that cannot also be seen elsewhere in Asia?

 

[ehecatzin]

I still think Aztec fit better in Medieval, but I don't know who I'd place in Early Modern Mesoamerica. On the other hand, we haven't been guaranteed an unbroken line for any region.


Slightly off topic, but Peru is my second favorite coffee region, after East Africa. Peruvian coffee is the only New World coffee I really love.

I think the best candidate would be a second cultural iteration for Mayans, Petén Itza could be very interesting, since it had it's roots in the Mayapan league and the kingdom resisted the Spanish until 1697 (I think that qualifies for early modern), it could also have some aspects from the Crozob rebellion (casta war) if you want to push it all the way into the industrial threshold.

Architecture wise It wouldn't overlap with the classical Maya because they are very distinctive, (for reference picture the contrast between Chichen Itza and Tikal)

 

[Patine]

I think the best candidate would be a second cultural iteration for Mayans, Petén Itza could be very interesting, since it had it's roots in the Mayapan league and the kingdom resisted the Spanish until 1697 (I think that qualifies for early modern), it could also have some aspects from the Crozob rebellion (casta war) if you want to push it all the way into the industrial threshold.

Architecture wise It wouldn't overlap with the classical Maya because they are very distinctive, (for reference picture the contrast between Chichen Itza and Tikal)

The Zapatistas are late 1990's-to-Present, and seem to be predominantly Maya and other Indigenous Mexicans from south of the Valley of Mexico, which was where the Aztec Triple Alliance and, before them, Teohuanican and the Toltecs dominated.

 

[BuchiTaton]

So in other words, the most interesting aspect of Yamato Japan was their adoption of agricultural techniques already in use across the continent? Yeah, that doesn't really do it for me...

Yamato could sound less impresive but already it could tell ous a different kind of history.

Yamato period was an era of modernization and influences from Korea and China, Yamato people take advantage of this in their favor, this is also a example of cultural expansion and interaction without be throught major invasion or conquest of one people vs others. A refreshing options vs the regular conquest of empires, barbarian invasions and colonial exploitation.

Also this fit as a trait of Japanese history, we must remember how they also adapted new technologies during late Sengoku contact with europeans and the Meiji period. Some bonus for technology from other nations could be a representation of Japans hability to modernize from others.

Also Kofun is clearly an emblematic structure.

 

[Siptah]

What exactly does that mean though? What is so unique about farming practices in Japan that cannot also be seen elsewhere in Asia?

Look at the demographic estimations: between 1000 BC and 700 AD numbers for Japan skyrocket by up to 6000% (estimations), it changed from a sparingly populated region of the world to one that could sustain larger societies that organized with a larger central authority (in something like a feudal system). Compare it to the Chinese numbers in that time frame, where we have (unreliable) census data as basis for estimations: population was more or less stable from 1000 BC to 0 AD and then took off by ~400% until 700. It's not a comparison on equal basis, as China had larger growth rates before that time frame (like 4000 years earlier) and was already densely population in some of its region. But it is a reason why - when purely looking for agricultural effects - Yamato *can* be preferred to Han.

Now, do I prefer Yamato to the Han overall? Not really. But as we are probably looking for a classical culture from east Asia with an agricultural trait, Yamato would not be a bad choice at all.

 

[conorbebe]

Thanks for your responses. I'm not disputing that the Yamato period could be made into a functional Culture (I'm aware of the Kofun tombs), moreover I don't associate their adoption of agriculture as something "Emblematic".

After looking over some earlier screenshots, I'm pretty confident which culture will be revealed today, but I won't reveal it here yet in case I'm wrong or people don't want to be spoiled.

 

[Siptah]

Hopefully no turtle ships or Hwacha in the classical era... ;-)