Poll: What is the Best Unique Unit?

[SirDrake]

In theory, the Musketeer should be the most powerful. Speed kills.

In practice, they are partly deprecated by game mechanics, such as the inability to cut a road or rail while there is an improvement on it.

But mostly, they lose value in actual games because of the A in AI. Computer opponents over-defend cities which aren't threatened, make poorly-selected counterattacks, often fail to threaten multiple cities when on the offensive, almost always fail to use defensive positions outside of an immediately-threatened city, do a lousy job of reinforcing cities under siege, burn through units attacking mixed-type military stacks, and are utterly incompetent at retreating wounded units.

But against a human opponent, I would gladly take the Musketeers.


-J

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Musketeers are all right. I played DeGaul recently and was able to pillage most of the 2nd largest empire without losing too many units. But I wouldn't say they're anything to write home about. I certainly don't think that they're the most powerful because of 1 extra movement point. Certainly better pillagers when paired with Curissairs (sp?), but nothing so exploitable as to allow one to move up a difficulty (like Quechas)

 

[smitsk00]

You can kill an enemy capital with Quechas by turn 100 ... that right there should speak for itself. Even if you don't rush they handle barb's very well until axes start to show. Even if you have no barb problems they're excellent garrisons for a time. Its a gift that keeps on giving.

War Chariots are a pubic hair shy of being every bit as strong as Immortals against Archers (specially if you promote them right ... up the combat line). They have 5 strength instead of 4 and start with immunity to first strikes which Immortals have to fish up the flanking line for. They are better than immortals against everything else in that time frame which really helps against those couple of spears the AI might build (you're still going to lose some taking him out though). Regardless proper chariot use implies you are disconnecting copper and then running them over.

After this post, I went and played an Inca game on Emperor, and lo and behold, those Quecha led me to my first Emperor win! I completely recind my comment about them.

 

[blind biker]

I voted for the Praetorian - and when I saw the poll results, I was quite shocked that I find myself in agreement with such a large majority of fellow Civ IV-ers!! Whoa, praetorians freakin' own! Which is befitting, seeing as though they were the elite force, the Emperors very own guards. Well paid, too.

 

[Shafi-is-back]

Hard choice between Immortals, War Chariots and Preatorians, but i voted Immortal.

expected most to vote for Prats but i thought there would be more love for Immortals & War chriots

 

[Iranon]

Choice between Immortals and War Chariots should be easy: Immortals are better against archers with at most 1 promotion defending flatland cities without walls or a culture bonus. War Chariots are better against anything else including archers with more defensive bonuses. They also manage to punch through a few counter units well enough: War Chariots vs. Spearman is about as good a match-up as Swordsman vs. Axeman, not ideal but no disaster either.

 

[PreLynMax]

I like the Keshik, as in terms of synergy with the UB, but individually, my vote has to be the Prat.

Besides, check out MY UUs:

Dark Jouster
Unique Unit for PreLynMax's Awesome Empire
Replaces Knight
10, 2, 90
Immune to first strikes
Doesn't receive defensive bonuses
Flank attack vs. Catapults and Trebuchets
Double damage against Catapults and Trebuchets

2nd UU (only for certian mods)

Big Giant Poo Flinger
Unique Unit for PreLynMax's Awesome Empire
Replaces Trebuchet
5, 1, 50
+100% city attack
Doesn't receive defensive bonuses
Maximum of 75% damage to enemy
Causes collateral damage
Can bombard city defenses (-16%/turn)
Immune to collateral damage from Siege Units
Cannot attack amphibiously

 

[revengeofmakno]

In terms of straight game breaking power, there is no doubt that Praetorians are the best (Redcoats are not bad either). The complications come in when one matches the unit to timing and the starting techs of the civ in question. For that reason, I voted for War Chariots. They are not super powerful but Egypt can get them VERY early. Early aggression based on chariots is recognized as an effective strategy. Not only does Egypt get a boost to that unit, it is set up to put it in motion after researching just one tech. That is tough to beat.
However, Keshiks are the most fun.

 

[blind biker]

In terms of straight game breaking power, there is no doubt that Praetorians are the best (Redcoats are not bad either). The complications come in when one matches the unit to timing and the starting techs of the civ in question. For that reason, I voted for War Chariots. They are not super powerful but Egypt can get them VERY early. Early aggression based on chariots is recognized as an effective strategy. Not only does Egypt get a boost to that unit, it is set up to put it in motion after researching just one tech. That is tough to beat.
However, Keshiks are the most fun.

By the way - I thought war chariots weren't originally Egyptian. I think they got them from the Hyksos, who actually kicked Egyptian ass with their war chariots. And before even the Hyksos, the ones to use war chariots first were the Hittites, which is pretty well established.

All in all, I think either a different civ should have been introduced (Hittites, why not, they had a large empire, and the first to introduce a new "mechanized" war machine), or the Egyptians should have had a different UU. The infantry with the bronze war hammer was a uniquely Egyptian unit (first to introduce the weapon was Egypt, and not many have used it afterwards, IIRC), so why not have that? A bit of a fail on Firaxis' part, IMHO.

 

[obsolete]

In terms of straight game breaking power, there is no doubt that Praetorians are the best

Pratorian
Strength 8
(Suffers Melee penalties)
(Requires resource)

Churchill's Redcoat
Strength 14
(Resourceless)
(Suffers no Melee Penalties)
(+25% bonus vs Mounted)
(+25% bonus vs gunpower units)
(+ CG I)
(+ DR I)
(Discount an all EXP gained)

[can be built for just 1 pop]

Don't for an instant try to tell me there is no doubt....

 

[oldskald]

Churchill's Redcoat
Strength 14
(Resourceless)
(Suffers no Melee Penalties)
(+25% bonus vs Mounted)
(+25% bonus vs gunpower units)
(+ CG I)
(+ DR I)
(Discount an all EXP gained)

[can be built for just 1 pop]

Don't for an instant try to tell me there is no doubt....

Obsolete, as an Englishman you are my hero! The advance at Fontenoy (they charged cavalry! Unheard of!!), Wolfe and the capture of Quebec, Salamanca, The stand of Maitland's Guards at Waterloo, the Thin Red Line at Balaklava, the Retreat from Kabul and the Stand of the 44th... all great moments in Redcoat history (even if we did lose two of them!). They truly are the best...

 

[plasmacannon]

I voted for the Praetorian as well. War Chariots would be 2nd. Immortals, Quecha and Gallic Warriors would round out my Top 5 Favorites.
Yes, England's Redcoats are awesome, but, in most of my games, I can usually deal with England well before then.
In General, Swordsmen make the best city attackers, and Praetorian are the best offensive swordsman for attacking cities, or most units in the open, or defending cities.
very versatile.
Its weaknesses have been talked about already.
I usually don't have a problem finding Iron. There is usually one close enough to all of the empires.
Copper I find rarely, horses 2nd most rare.

In the game I playing now, I am Gilgamesh and have 3 Iron's for my vultures and swordsmen.
I chose not to settle in place, and moved for a few turns to a plains hills near my starting 3 food sources. Apparantly the 2 close empire's Iron resourses were side by side. I got them both in my capitol's radius. A 23 production city capability early on. Nice.
Mine was to my south, near my horse, all for a later city.

Sometimes it is better not to settle in place.

Oh, for the guys talking about Conquistadors earlier.
Conq (12) + 20% (combat bonuses) = 14.4
Janissary (9) + 20% (combat bonuses) + UU's natural 25% vs mounted = 13.05
If fully fortified 15.3, If on a Hill 17.55, If chose G1+G2 instead of C1+C2 = 19.8
Gunpowder units can get G3 W3 so, they could get bonuses to eliminate the Conqs terrain defense too.

There are defenses to the Conquistador.

I realize the AI may not play Janissaries as smartly as necessary to beat Conqs, but, a human player can be smart enough to build enough to tech to riflemen.
The window of use for Conqs is so short in my games, that, I usually have the option to upgrade Knights (or elephants) to Conqs or Calvary.

Fighting Spain, I have beaten her without one single battle.
Isabella and Justinian had different religions. I chose to Justinian's and he wiped her out.

Oh, I guess that is another counter.
Cataphracts are a base 12 unit also, so, promotion strengths will be equal, and Byzantine can get them earlier.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Pratorian
Strength 8
(Suffers Melee penalties)
(Requires resource)

Churchill's Redcoat
Strength 14
(Resourceless)
(Suffers no Melee Penalties)
(+25% bonus vs Mounted)
(+25% bonus vs gunpower units)
(+ CG I)
(+ DR I)
(Discount an all EXP gained)

[can be built for just 1 pop]

Don't for an instant try to tell me there is no doubt....

I will tell you exactly that, no doubt about it. The redcoats, as I said, are good but they come very much later. The game is much more complex by then and the effect of any UU is thereby much less. A late UU or UB seldom changes the game. While they can be a concern, they do not invoke the genuine and justified panic that the strong early UUs do. The king of those is the Praetorian. Hence the voting result. The collective experience of the players is obvious.

@ blind biker
You make a fair point. As it stands now, there are no Hittites, so I don't mind too much that Egypt is given them as its unique unit. If the Hittites were in, then it would definitely seem out of place. The question might be, "what weapon built Egypt's largest empire"? That would be Thutmose III and chariots were in heavy use in the Egyptian army by then.
Bronze war hammer would be what, a souped up warrior, a downgraded axe of some kind? Tricky to fit in if it is to require bronze.

As far as Firaxis failures on military units goes, the glaring example is the Immortal. The early Achaemenid version was definitely infantry with no unusual mobility and definitely no horses. The much later version of the Immortal under that Sassanids were a type of heavy cavalry that would have to be of at least 7 strength and likely more.

 

[blind biker]

You make a fair point. As it stands now, there are no Hittites, so I don't mind too much that Egypt is given them as its unique unit. If the Hittites were in, then it would definitely seem out of place. The question might be, "what weapon built Egypt's largest empire"? That would be Thutmose III and chariots were in heavy use in the Egyptian army by then.
Bronze war hammer would be what, a souped up warrior, a downgraded axe of some kind? Tricky to fit in if it is to require bronze.

OK, I agree with you on the choice for war chariots + Egypt.

The bronze war hammer soldier was quite a bit of a game changer, AFAIK, because of Egypt's early adoption of bronze. Which made me think that Civ IV would be more interesting if various civs had different costs for some technologies, than the rest of th civs. For instance, make it easier for Egypt to research bronze working.

I think people don't realize just how hard bronze is. It is a very hard alloy. Of course, steel is better, but the early iron wasn't much harder than bronze.

 

[obsolete]

The king of those is the Praetorian. Hence the voting result. The collective experience of the players is obvious.

Collective experience of the average player, is just giving you the results of the average player.

You should know clear well the average player has a lot to learn still...

 

[babar]

Praetorian is the best (or maybe just the easiest) at emperor/monarch, but not so great at immortal, and I imagine fairly useless at deity. On the middle levels other units can rush faster, but are more likely to wreck your economy. I did clear a small pangaea with nothing but prats for my first immortal "win", but that's juking the settings a bit...

At immortal I find the quechua to be the most consistently useful. I can't add anything to Iranon's posts on the multiple benefits of the quechua.

Redcoats are great in that they are reliable and powerful. I prefer to consider the UU in isolation of any traits that might enhance it though. After all, some UUs have multiple leaders, and I quite enjoy unrestricted on occasion.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Collective experience of the average player, is just giving you the results of the average player.

You should know clear well the average player has a lot to learn still...

You are entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to disagree. This particular mini-debate is played out.

@ blind biker
There is certainly a good case for reworking the units to make room for such historic subtleties. There are many omissions. Ancient cavalry other than horse archers (and Numidians as a UU) is absent while axemen are hugely exaggerated in importance and don't match up with history, etc. The tech tree also could also be reworked. It's all a playable compromise but is also more than a bit bizarre at times. Some mods have taken a run at changing that.

 

[bestbrian]

Oh, for the guys talking about Conquistadors earlier.

Yeah, almost two years ago, earlier.

Yeah, they're still my fave, and I think they're a hoot to play with, but, unfortunately, the mod I play now (LoR) doesn't have them.

 

[Farm Boy]

I think anytime a debate among reasoning human beings is revolving around there being "no doubt" of something, and people are defending the absolute - there is bad intentional ignorance mojo about.