Polynesia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Feels good to me. Those cities should get a bonus 50 defense (scaling with era) to make up for how much the person upsettled (insettled?) will want to attack them.
     
  2. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    In general, I think Polynesia sometimes suffers from oversettling, but that's not a problem with their UA, but a minor AI nitpick. All the other AIs do it too, it is just exacerbated for Polynesia as an issue. It is a little frustrating to see how keen the AI is to lock down largely worthless space at times.
     
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  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Anyone knows what his flavour is?
     
  4. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Would it make more sense if the bonus to melee naval units regarding fishing boats applied to melee units instead? That would actually be useful early game.
     
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  5. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    That seems too strong. You could get turn 1 luxuries
     
  6. Legen

    Legen King

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    You need the Fishing tech first, since you can't improve otherwise. The original vanilla ability was available on a melee unit (Samurai, of all units), so it makes sense to do the same for Polynesia.
     
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  7. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    What Legen said, and also, you don't start with a melee unit, you start with a recon unit. I mean melee units strictly.
     
  8. void_genesis

    void_genesis Prince

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    I've been playing some Polynesia lately and agree that the ability for triremes to make fishing boats comes a bit late, though that does make an interesting decision whether to make work boats or wait for the trireme to come online. Fishing resources are naturally better, and happiness better from lack of isolation so you can normally afford to wait.

    I have been wondering which policy tree works best for Polynesia as well. Given you can explore the map so rapidly in the early eras I have been producing a second pathfinder first in my capital. This allows you to get ruins, including on isolated islands, before anyone else has a chance. Maybe this is suboptimal as I haven't been doing amazingly well in most of my games. You do need to have a decent idea of the terrain since Polynesia is so terrain dependent. If there are lots of good sized islands that can hold moai clusters then progress seems natural. If there is good moai space close to your capital then tradition could work. If there are only CS and AI nearby with good territory then authority can work since the moai make puppets extra worthwhile. Only my authority games have taken off well at emperor, so perhaps the other approaches need more conquest to be viable at higher levels. Any suggestions people?
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Build a monument and shrine before the pathfinder. Watch as the entire game becomes much easier.

    Polynesia is pretty flexible. I find that tradition does not work very well with large amounts of water, so I would probably go with one of the other two, just depending on how much war you expect.
     
  10. void_genesis

    void_genesis Prince

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    I have been trying monument+shrine first and finding I am not falling behind nearly as bad. The isolated ruins are still out there on the islands later on as long as you don't wait forever. Looking at the communitas map script the island city states seem to end up with the best terrain for moai most of the time, so conquering a few before other players meet them seems like the best approach. You can be selective so you have a mixture of puppets and CS allies this way..
     
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  11. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I have just been playing Polynesia now, and I really approve of this change. As it is, Triremes just do come too late for me to really appreciate the fact they can make Fishing Boats. It is just too niche.
     
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  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    What about letting Polynesia build triremes at fishing?

    Is that an easy change to make in some XML?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
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  13. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Don't you mean at Fishing? Everyone can build Triremes at Sailing?

    I actually think putting the ability to make Fishing Boats on Melee units makes more sense. Polynesian war bands travelled incredible distances relying on fish to restock between raids. It would be flavourful and a fairly balanced boost to Polynesia, that really plays to their UA. A single Settler/Warrior combo can set up an isolated island coastal City very nicely, plays well with Progress and Authority.

    Cultures like the Maori didn't use anything like the classical European trireme, with three-band oarsmen upt to 25 in length. That's for calm waters like the Mediterranean, not open sea. Maori warboats like the Waka Taua used paddles and were much shorter, more like this:



    Giving them early Triremes isn't as flavoursome, IMO, as giving it to embarked Melee units.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
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  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I worry that if your starting warrior could build fishing boats at fishing, paired with the enormous bonus you get to fishing resources, that Polynesia would be a civ that is just absurd when he begins on a fishing monopoly but mediocre otherwise. Sink or swim.
     
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  15. void_genesis

    void_genesis Prince

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    I agree- Polynesia with a fishing boat monopoly start would be far too unbalanced if the starting warrior could make fishing boats. Trireme is a reasonable balance since they come online very fast once you do finally research sailing.
     
  16. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I have just played a Polynesia game now and frankly the Trireme ability is basically useless. Even if you beeline Sailing, since you have to go through Trade first, it takes about 30 turns to get there from finishing Fishing. I am not waiting that long to connect Fishing Boat Monopolies, no chance.

    If for balance reasons, it is kept on Trireme but Polynesia unlocks Trireme at Fishing, well, I am okay with that. But I do think the status quo is meh.
     
  17. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    Hmm... Would it be possible for the Fishing boats to not be expended after they are used? I mean... That could be another approach.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It is possible to make the promotion available starting with a tech. Remember how some promotions begin with dynamite. Well, give this promotion to any Polynesian melee, but it only appears once fishing is researched.
     
  19. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    On an entirely different note:

    I vaguely remember reading once that Venice has a small bit of code that means it is placed first, before all other Civs, to ensure it is *definitely* coastal. Can Polynesia use that same code? Non-coastal Polynesia is terrrrrible, and it happens like 1 time in 4 for me in Continents, default, no other changes.
     
  20. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Venice does in fact have a unique starting bias where it is guaranteed to be placed on the coast regardless of what other Civs are in the game. But I don't know how giving other Civs that same special starting bias would work when, say, Polynesia and Venice are both in play. I usually play Continents or Communitas, and I have never seen Polynesia not start on the coast, but I have seen them start on in-land seas or 1-tile channels, but I don't think giving them the "super coastal bias" would fix that.
     

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