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Polynesia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    This is pretty much exactly what I've proposed before. It would also allow us to drop the extremely ugly ability to build Moai on resources.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    It can work, I suppose. Yields production and culture as before (I thought moais were a religious thing)? One production and one culture for every adjacent sea tiles can be a lot too. Perhaps a base 1 production, increasing with techs, and 1 culture for every adjacent tile, although it seems too much still from the beginning.

    I disagree on that building a complete coast of moais is ugly, actually it is pretty beautiful. I think that reducing the current yielding can be enough (it is improved via techs, so changing the starting tech to classical is also an option).
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    The line between religion and culture is pretty blurry in this game.

    I don't think that's ugly, I think building stone-statues on top of cattle looks ugly and breaks one of the main concepts of the game, that resources should be improved.
     
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Yeah, especially if you get one of those starts where there's tiny 1 tile islands just in reach from the mainland/some other landmass.

    If it was +1C+1P per water tile, that tile alone would provide 6C6P (+ anything base). Adjacent water giving yields seems to be a pretty bad idea

    Also adjacency bonus only works if it has 1 yield base from what Gazebo said, so it's impossible to have Moai get no base Culture and Culture from adjacent moai/water.
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I think we can make an exception only for Polynesia. You should see how pretty those coasts are.

    If the yield is excessive, production can be flat (improved only with techs) and culture gained on adjacency. Starting tech, masonry.
     
  6. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Chieftain

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    I think a bonus from water tiles would be great, and very useful for developing minimal land islands that Polynesia might want to take an early advantage of. How about we keep the water bonus, but cap it at +3C3P? Powerful enough to get early tiny islands off the ground, but not so powerful as to seem unreasonable compared to their minimal +1C1P counterparts.
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    You are talking of a bonus for each 2 adjacent tiles. A tiny island gets +3p+3c, a straight coast line get +1p+1c, a roughed coast line can get sometimes +2p+2c at the cope, and thin islands too.

    Problem there is that when I settle in a tiny island there are not many other tiny islands in range, so most common bonus is going to be +1p+1c. (But, well, it can be improved with techs).
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Why should we make an exception for anyone? They are pretty? That's a terrible argument.
     
  9. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Chieftain

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    True, but coastal islands also have many more practical tiles to work with compared to their tiny island counterparts, so having their tiles be somewhat weaker in such a scenario (most of the time at least) probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. If anything, some solid base yields of 1C2P (or 2C2P, but the extra culture might be a bit much), will compensate nicely for the bonus.
    Then in that scenario, you're averaging 2C3P tiles at your coast, a few 3C4P tiles here and there, and for your smallest islands (or a few lucky bumps outside your coast) 4C5P, all without the need for worrying about your chains (though, due to the nature of how where it's placed, you're going to be sporting chains regardless). It's at its best when you're working tiny scattered islands, and only average at the coast, not including future upgrades.)

    (Yeah, there's still the potential of tiny islands having resources under them, but that's something all UIs have to deal with, so that's an entirely different matter for an entirely different thread.)
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    The thing is, as soon as you add some kind of ocean-scaling or decent base-stats and scale back the adjacency bonus, it doesn't matter if there is a resource blocking you. Sure, you lose out on a good tile, but that's not really the end of the world.
    The problem is as the game is currently designed, the adjacency scaling is so incredibly powerful, that having a resource blocking placement of a moai not only ruins the tile itself but also all tiles nearby.
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    This is what I call pretty
    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :
     
  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Yeah, that's also what I would call pretty. Pretty OP.


    Though yeah visually it IS appealing, but the yields need to be at least halved, seriously even the best of GPI are nothing compared to those Moai in those conditions, and they come in ancient era and even when Moai locations aren't as good, they still are too good and still are basically ancient era free GPI. Even pre-buff Moai were the best ancient era improvement (easiest to place, most Culture which is always the best yield, coast = lots of food as soon as Lighthouse so you can work them, and there's other land tiles to work anyway), but after buff it became absolutely unreasonable. Seriously, look at the pic. Those are better than any GPIs after any policy and religious improvements while being accessed in Ancient. Look at the picture, like seriously. That's more culture ALONE in those Moais than my industrial era cities get even with Inspiration, and it also gives more production than can be put into words.

    Anyway not that I look at the pic I really don't see what you've meant before by saying no place for culture from GPIs on coastal as Polynesia. You've got fifty billion free spots to settle any GP even on your extremely Polynesia-favouring map, and anyway now that I think about it, only Great Prophets give base culture on their GPI. Towns don't, Manufactures don't, Academies don't. Sure, with certain policy/reformation belief picks all of them provide culture, but that's not base, and GWAM's give GWAM pieces that can only be put inside city buildings, not land.

    Even Arabia (the most GP spammy civ) with the best of circumstances wouldn't be able to fill all those land non-coastal tiles alone with GP, especially since not bulbing them by Renaissance or Industrial latest is a bad idea, and you've got way more cities anyway if, somehow, you ran out of place.
     
  13. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Chieftain

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    That does look like quite a bit. Maybe...:undecide: The adjacency bonus is something that makes the moai interesting, so, how about the base value gets lowered to 1C1P, and the bonus simply applies to when a moai is next to another moai. It doesn't matter the number, just a singular, adjacent moai to give an additional +1C1P. (This is all without it's later era buffs, to which it will improve of course.)

    Compared to other ancient era improvements, 2C2P seems pretty good for an improvement, without being excessive.
     
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I agree with you. It'd still be the best by far in the ancient era, still comparable to Medieval era UI once the upgrades kick in which they do quickly, but not a free Manufactory + more Culture than your typical city can generate. I really don't get why the easiest to place and one of the earliest UI is also by far the best. There's no comparison even between it and anything else, doubly so if you consider Culture and Production are pretty much THE best yields in the game.

    Seriously, if only tu_79 went Autocracy with Polynesia which it probably always should (all UI civs should tbh, unless their UI is pretty rare in which case that doesn't matter) - Autocracy is pretty good for any victory, and their UI is the easiest to place with least restrictions and pretty much always the most numerous out of all UIs, meaning those tiles would be even better. Imagine +3 Science on each of those (that's what it'd be), he'd be pretty much getting more Culture, Production AND Science out of the Moai than he possibly could out of his cities with all the buildings.
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Honestly, the moai is the absolute biggest problem here, you need to be seriously lucky to match the average amount of moai per city compared with any other unique improvements.
    Sure there are a few that can be spammed quite well, Eki, Polder, Terrace-Farm and brazilwood camps. But they all require pretty rare terrain, and they are all blocked by resources. And honestly even if you somehow get such a ridiculous setup that you're able to spam them to the same degree as Moai, they can't keep up in yields anyways.

    Either the ability to build moai on top of resources either needs to go or Military-Industrial Complex needs to be adjusted to treat different improvements differently.

    On top of that the Production on the Moai really needs to go as well, the tiles are out of control.
     
  16. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I am not saying Autocracy is a problem - it's balanced even for UI-focused civs. Autocracy is only the best at fighting (and happiness if you've been really fighting a lot/are Persia). For someone like Pikatello/Maria/Pacal, the Science they'll get is definitely not anything to lose their heads over and really not enough to make you go Autocracy by itself. Other UIs are also more or less balanced. Some are stronger, some are weaker, but none is Moai.

    In case of Polynesia it is one really OP policy and a reason you should always go Autocracy, sure, but the Production and Culture Moai gives is so big and will give you so many policies, the +3 Science is just an icing on the top of OP cake and doesn't swing it at all. I'd prefer if it just gave +1S for all land tiles instead though. Equally balanced for all gameplay styles, less stronger for UI-owners, stronger for non-UI civs, but probably not broken. I just said it'd look even more ridiculous if tu_79 had taken this particular Policy. That'd make it from "are those Moai about as strong as 2 GPI put together while providing +20% CS and being the most common UI in the game?" to "yeah those Moai ARE as strong as 2 GPI put together"
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Well, they have a couple of policies that improve unique improvements, and those spots were the two best in my 22 cities empire. In Ancient, my yields were just a little better, as all the starting coasts were straight.
    I didn't take Authority because I didn't want to keep fighting for it to yield something, but considering that I could place at least 4 moais per city, 12 science per city is better that the flat 3 per city of Progress.

    OK, lessen the moai yields to make it balanced, make it start later or whatever you want, but please, let them be over any resource. It's graphically very appealing.
     
  18. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    We mean Autocracy, as in the Ideology. One tier1 Policy grants a neat 3 Science per UI, Defense Building or Citadel. Authority gives nothing for UIs. I agree coastal moai do look nice though
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Funny thing: I needed to switch to Autocracy. Every other civ has picked Autocracy and I'm trying to culturally influence them. I expected that with Pacifism it would be easier to force other civs into my Ideology, but somehow they all went following Ottomans.

    Even with these 'overpowered' tiles, I'm having a hard time in King. Maybe it's just me. Austria dominates WC. Ottoman is tens of techs ahead. I just dominate in tourism, but I have only influenced a 36% of Austria in turn 345. I have secured 5 CS by settling near and expending gold. My army is laughable (the weakest, by far).
     
  20. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Chieftain

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    So, are moai receiving a nerf in the next update, cause nowadays they are really OP, even more with the food bonus they have now. I'm currently playing a game and adopted ideology as soon as I got into industria, playing on Deity I have the most techs, politics, cities and points and this never happened to me.

    I've found some amazing islands for moais and all this became even more OP with autocracy.



    And also many others as I currently have 20+ cities.
    And I have influenced 4 civs in industrial, and I'm popular with the others, which also never happened to me on such an high level.
     

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