Polynesian Triremes and Ironclads Can Use Ocean Tiles

[binhthuy71]

Like the title said; Polynesian Triremes and Ironclads can safely use ocean tiles.

I've been playing Polynesia a lot lately and in one game I gave a Trireme a move order to an adjacent island. I thought that it would hug the coastal tiles as usual. Instead it beelined right across some ocean tiles. Thinking that it may have been a glitch or that I wasn't paying complete attention, I sailed out into the ocean on purpose. It went with no trouble. Interesting.

Further on in the game I built an Ironclad to see if it, too, could sail in deep water. Yep, it sure could. With the Great Lighthouse (+1 Movement, +1 LOS) Polynesia has an Industrial Era naval unit with 5 moves and Str 35, that does 18 Damage. Coal is usually pretty easy to come by, especially if you've taken the Cultural Diplomacy SP so Polynesia can build more of these units than it could possibly need.

As far as I know, this is undocumented. Hopefully it will help others to have a bit more fun when they play Polynesia.

 

[anandus]

Was it outside your borders?

 

[revelation216]

Couldn't ironclads sail in oceans in real life?

 

[CultureManiac]

All of Polynesia's units can travel across the ocean from Turn 1. It's part of their UA. Never thought about it applying to tiremes, though, as I've never felt the need to build a ship for Polynesia before caravels.

 

[binhthuy71]

Couldn't ironclads sail in oceans in real life?

They could but it was dicey. The U.S.S. Monitor sank in heavy seas on its way back from battling the Merrimac. The reason Ironclads weren't good on the open ocean is that they typically had a very low freeboard (The distance from the waterline to the deck) so they were easily swamped.

 

[binhthuy71]

Was it outside your borders?

Yes. I sailed it over to Germany, who'd DoWd me a few turns earlier. It was great for erasing Bismarck's swarms of Caravels. Seems he'd spent all of his Iron earlier on Swords and Trebs so he was unable to build Frigates.

 

[anandus]

Yes.

Yeah, within your borders it's supposed to be possible, as far as I know.

I had the same 'revelation' (although it was with turtle ships).
See this topic: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=437534

 

[Drawmeus]

They could but it was dicey. The U.S.S. Monitor sank in heavy seas on its way back from battling the Merrimac. The reason Ironclads weren't good on the open ocean is that they typically had a very low freeboard (The distance from the waterline to the deck) so they were easily swamped.

Sort of. "Ironclad" was a type that ultimately evolved into battlecruisers and battleships, and later Ironclads were easily capable of ocean transport. They were the vehicles of continued English colonial dominance for a few decades until they evolved into the WWI-era types, which were a smooth progression from ironclads like the U.S.S. Monitor.

Ultimately it just comes down to what the Ironclad unit represents. My bias is against having them represent types like the Monitor and Merrimac, because only a handful of those ships were ever built and despite the famous battle they had little effect on history. If we were going to represent every military innovation ever, fine, but at the granularity of a game of Civ, they're just too small.

 

[Optional]

I think there's more about Polynesia that isn't particularly well documented. I played them for the first time a few days ago and built a few Moai. I noticed the one on flatland gave 1 , while I built a few on hills that gave 2 each.
I suppose that's how it is?

Polynesian triremes being able to go over ocean from the start is indeed a bit strange, because all other civs can get techs that allow their units to cross oceans, but their triremes remain bound to the coast the whole game.

I get the impression the ability to embark oceans is the strongest part of Polenesia's specials. Earlier trading abilities, finding wonders and goody huts, and with those goody huts the Polenesiens could have a surprise card in their hands...
Here's a tip: When crossing oceans early game, don't use a scout or warrior but use an archer or chariot. There's a decent chance your units will find advanced weapons somewhere and with an archer or chariot the result will be so much more satisfying!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think there's more about Polynesia that isn't particularly well documented. I played them for the first time a few days ago and built a few Moai. I noticed the one on flatland gave 1 , while I built a few on hills that gave 2 each.
I suppose that's how it is?

No, they give an additional +1 for each neighboring one.

 

[CultureManiac]

No, they give an additional +1 for each neighboring one.

And this stacks, so if you are able to put moai on a triangle of hexes, for example, each would be three culture. You can actually get one to produce up to six culture if the coastline is in the right shape - the hex would touch the ocean on one side, and all five adjoining land hexes would also be ocean squares. Peninsulas are good for this.

 

[DavidCAD]

Couldn't ironclads sail in oceans in real life?

It depends on the kind of ship. The typical definition of a ironclad was a ship whose surface was protected from shell fire by iron plating and could move independent of the wind using steam and the relatively new corkscrew propeller (instead of a paddle wheel which represented a liability).

The ironclad units in the Civilization series have always been based on America's early ironclads developed during the Civil War. These where built as river gunboats (even the raised USS Merrimack had its hull cut down to the waterline to create the CSS Virginia, though it still had the deep underwater draft of Merrimack, making it a master of neither rivers or oceans) and the limitations of river boats that couldn't handle 2' waves are reflected in Civilization.

Outside of America there where two generations of ironclads that preceeded the American Civil War. The first where arguably not full ironclad ships - they where French (and British copied) armored barges designed for seiges in the Crimean War. After that the French feared British naval power and created the first ironclad that could rightfully be called a ship, Glory, a battleship with iron plating over the wooden hull (like Virginia) and steam propulsion. The British countered with Warrior, a ship built from the ground up from iron (the first iron hulled ship, not just clad) and other navies followed with both ironclad and iron hulled ships.

Despite being later the American ironclads that are represented in Civilization do have the distinction of being the first ironclads to actually shoot at something and very quickly progressed to the first battle between ironclads. This was important since nobody building ironclads actually knew how they would actually affect the battle - a ship seemingly invulnerable to shell fire was something of a wildcard, with the only obvious tactic being to sail up and sink all those old wooden ships with impunity.

 

[nokmirt]

Like the title said; Polynesian Triremes and Ironclads can safely use ocean tiles.

I've been playing Polynesia a lot lately and in one game I gave a Trireme a move order to an adjacent island. I thought that it would hug the coastal tiles as usual. Instead it beelined right across some ocean tiles. Thinking that it may have been a glitch or that I wasn't paying complete attention, I sailed out into the ocean on purpose. It went with no trouble. Interesting.

Further on in the game I built an Ironclad to see if it, too, could sail in deep water. Yep, it sure could. With the Great Lighthouse (+1 Movement, +1 LOS) Polynesia has an Industrial Era naval unit with 5 moves and Str 35, that does 18 Damage. Coal is usually pretty easy to come by, especially if you've taken the Cultural Diplomacy SP so Polynesia can build more of these units than it could possibly need.

As far as I know, this is undocumented. Hopefully it will help others to have a bit more fun when they play Polynesia.

I made mine all ocean going, because really the design of ironclad they use is more dreadnoughtish, more like an early destroyer really. LOL! it looks seaworthy enough to me. In any case, I upgunned them to make them more worthwhile. A definitive upgrade from frigate which is not portrayed in the regular game. However, your point oo Polynesia is true they have command of the seas into the Industrial Age.

There are a lot of naval developments not portrayed in the game, it would be too much for something other than a mod. There were floating batteries, coastal subs and dreadnoughts, torpedo boats, a whole slew of ship transformations that evolved during the Industrial Era, both coastal and sea going. Many countries were having Britain build ships for them. With the onset of Imperialism, one country tried to outdo the other in a world wide arms race, for prestige and military supremacy.

They could but it was dicey. The U.S.S. Monitor sank in heavy seas on its way back from battling the Merrimac. The reason Ironclads weren't good on the open ocean is that they typically had a very low freeboard (The distance from the waterline to the deck) so they were easily swamped.

The ironclad portrayed is much more advanced than the USS Monitor. There were reasons for the Monitors shortcomings. The simple one was its design which was unseaworthy because of its low freeboard and heavy turret. Another problem rarely mentioned was the short blower pipes which should have been longer by design, caused sea water to go down them in severe quantities, in any kind of rough sea. The excess water made the blower engine belts slip and come off in extreme circumstances. This made the engines stop from a lack of artificial draught, without which, in such a confined space, the fires could not get enough air for combustion. Those blower belts slip and its like throwing a wooden shoe into a factory's machine, it stops it dead cold. The whole process is sabotaged you see. Even worse, the engineer and his two mates had hell on their hands trying to deal with escaped exhaust gases which nearly suffocated them. With the boiler fires growing dimmer the steam pumps could not do their job to get rid of the excess water which kept pouring in. The only chance to save the ship was to replace the belts for the blower engines. For the new Monitor there happened to be a lull in the weather and a calm sea, which gave them time to repair the problems. However, in the boiler compartments it is a nightmare for those who have to make repairs. There is little air, and a lot of unbreathable gas, in a very tight confined area. You need huge wrenches and all of your strength to replace the belts. Without oxygen this had to be quite a super human feat. It was no fun to be on such a novel craft. And this was only the beginning of the ships problems. Thank God the makers of CiV give us a more seaworthy design of ironclad.

 

[binhthuy71]

I made mine all ocean going, because really the design of ironclad they use is more dreadnoughtish, more like an early destroyer really. LOL! it looks seaworthy enough to me. In any case, I upgunned them to make them more worthwhile. A definitive upgrade from frigate which is not portrayed in the regular game. However, your point oo Polynesia is true they have command of the seas into the Industrial Age.

Good stuff. I like your mod to the Ironclad. Since it was added to the game (CiIII?) it always seemed to be a unit that was just thrown in, without too much thought, so that there'd be an Industrial Age naval unit. If they came with Siege, Range, or Volley, I'd consider them worth building. As it is, I haven't built more than a handful of them in the entire time that they've been in the game.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Guess I might actually get myself to play polynesia again sometime soon.

Always found their traits a bit wonkey, only useful on archapelago and then a decent unit but on warrior level so only really useful for mass upgrading and with a special improvement that is nice for a culture victory but chokes off your city in respect to food/production/gold.

Only real use I could see is to go for domination and then spam statues on you puppets for a policy heavy domination/last minute culture victory, anyone found any other uses for them?

 

[binhthuy71]

Guess I might actually get myself to play polynesia again sometime soon.

Always found their traits a bit wonkey, only useful on archapelago and then a decent unit but on warrior level so only really useful for mass upgrading and with a special improvement that is nice for a culture victory but chokes off your city in respect to food/production/gold.

Only real use I could see is to go for domination and then spam statues on you puppets for a policy heavy domination/last minute culture victory, anyone found any other uses for them?

You've summed up one good way to play Polynesia. The other way is to play on a Terra Map and use BjoernLars' "Hail Mary" strategy. On turn one you set off with your Warrior and Settler and head for the new continent. The strategy is that the turns you lose in getting to the new continent will be made up for by the fact that you'll have the place to yourself to explore and build until the other Civs get to Optics. The downside is that you lose what's usually a pretty good start. You can mitigate this by settling your starting position and sending your Warrior off to find the new continent. You Warrior will have some time to explore before you pop your first Settler so that unit will have a good place to settle. I've tried the strategy both ways and the results have ranged from stellar to abysmal.

 

[Optional]

Seafaring on Pelago, Inca on Highlands and such... I always find that rigging things a little too much to your advantage.
Their unit is good on any map type, though. You can hardly go wrong with an early unit which ability upgrades. It's only a 10% advantage in battle, but especially against barbs I found the difference noticable. On a higher level, where you do not have much bonus against barbarians naturally, that 10% can swing the battle in your favour.

Okay, so I didn't understand the concept of those Moai yet. Yes, if the culture gets stronger if more get placed adjacently, they would only become good tiles to work if the map allows that type of placement. To be working a food poor tile just for 1 or 2 culture is dodgy.
But if the map situation allows better culture tiles, you will still want your workers to improve the food situation first, and after that they would need to invest a heap of turns to get a bunch of Moai up. That sounds like a late game advantage at best, restricted to one of two specific locations. Or if you have more locations, that probably means you're already the dominant force on the map.

 

[ForzaFiori]

Sort of. "Ironclad" was a type that ultimately evolved into battlecruisers and battleships, and later Ironclads were easily capable of ocean transport. They were the vehicles of continued English colonial dominance for a few decades until they evolved into the WWI-era types, which were a smooth progression from ironclads like the U.S.S. Monitor.

Ultimately it just comes down to what the Ironclad unit represents. My bias is against having them represent types like the Monitor and Merrimac, because only a handful of those ships were ever built and despite the famous battle they had little effect on history. If we were going to represent every military innovation ever, fine, but at the granularity of a game of Civ, they're just too small.

the difference between the "ironclad" type of ships that Civ is representing (such as the monitor and merrimac) and the destroyers and battleships of the world wars (which, by the way, already have units in Civ), is that in WWI, most ships were fully iron hulled, rather than iron CLAD over wood. This allowed a smaller hull, which let more of the ship be above water, and made them more sea-worthy. I don't know about the french and english iron-clads (didn't even know they had made them before this thread) but the US iron-clads were never sea-worthy.

The iron-clad is a really crappy unit, yes, and it has an incredibly small window of time (early industrial era) to do a very specific task (defend your coasts) but that's because it accurately represents them. While they only lasted for a short time, and really didn't do much (although they were decent blockade busters) they WERE an important stage in the evolution of ships. It'd be like leaving out musketmen, since riflemen are so close, and musketmen are rarely better than longswordsmen (unless a UU). Just cause they suck and aren't very useful doesn't mean that they aren't important.

 

[nokmirt]

Good stuff. I like your mod to the Ironclad. Since it was added to the game (CiIII?) it always seemed to be a unit that was just thrown in, without too much thought, so that there'd be an Industrial Age naval unit. If they came with Siege, Range, or Volley, I'd consider them worth building. As it is, I haven't built more than a handful of them in the entire time that they've been in the game.

I know, I've built very few as well. So I figured to try to make them fit in better.

 

[DavidCAD]

the difference between the "ironclad" type of ships that Civ is representing (such as the monitor and merrimac) and the destroyers and battleships of the world wars (which, by the way, already have units in Civ), is that in WWI, most ships were fully iron hulled, rather than iron CLAD over wood. This allowed a smaller hull, which let more of the ship be above water, and made them more sea-worthy. I don't know about the french and english iron-clads (didn't even know they had made them before this thread) but the US iron-clads were never sea-worthy.

With Glory (the French ironclad, and the first "ironclad ship" rather then barge) they did in fact have to cut down how much of the ship was above the waterline, but it was still high enough to navigate oceans. It was basically a big age of sail battleship, only with a steamstack between the masts, iron plating on the sides, and an entire deck/row of cannons sliced off. The resulting proportions looks rather odd.

The Warrior (completely iron hulled) introduced the basic modern hull proportions we are used to today, long and thin, over the fatter, taller looking age of sail battleships. This was to allow the ship to actually move at a reasonable speed through the water. However it took a while for the design to catch on, with other nations still making cheaper and less technology demanding iron clads using existing hulls and hull designs.

Besides the river and limited coastal action of ironclads in the Civil War, the 1860s also had the first ironclad fleet action in the Adriatic Sea between Italy and Austria. Due to the circumstances (like the Italian commanders being idiots and getting their larger fleet decisively crushed) it was not a good example of how ironclads would perform. In particular the accidental success of a few ram attacks during the battle mislead naval development for decades and probably wasn't fully dispelled until 2 major powers, Japan and Russia, finally had a real naval war and duked it out at the battle of Tsushima (where Japan took Russia to the cleaners) which proved the "all big gun" design that would be used in WWI - or rather all main guns the same size, most guns able to fire at same target using the graduated turret layout, and engaging at long range instead of close range broadsides. Advancements with range finders (the Japanese had the latest, and only having splashes from one caliber of gun made it easy to adjust their shots) and communication (Japanese had mastered their own wireless telegraph system to coordinate fleet movements, while the Russians barely understood their foreign made sets - they actually signaled the Japanese fleet their own position!) played a big part in this change too.