Popular protests in the EU
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Akka
Moody old mage.
I'm both happy to see a rollback of what has been a shame, wary of just a few symbolic and mostly empty gesture hiding the real problem of the dismantling of the welfare state in the background, and yet somewhat annoyed that people elect someone on a program, to then complain when he actually follows it.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Do consider that only 24% of the voters actually voted for Macron when they had a choice. And the second round had what, the biggest abstention wince WW2?
The legislative elections were another thing, they did fell for his promises.
The legislative elections were another thing, they did fell for his promises.
Ironsided
Flower of happiness
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Read an article on this mess today. Haven’t read the whole tread yet. But here goes:
Macron really is the Hillary Clinton of the EU isn’t he? He totally confused his support in elections for support of his politics. I have always had a genuine admiration for the French people’s sense of hands-on democracy. Be it farmers taking their tractors dumping manure on the Champs Elysees or yellow vests standing up, being counted.
In Swedish media Macron has been painted as some sort of forward thinking breath of fresh air in Europe. In France he has been described in a book titled “Macron le Suédois” because he takes so much inspiration from the Scandinavian countries. The problem here is that the Scandinavian countries have conformed to naive wishful liberal market capitalism for the last twenty years. We have nothing different or remotely unique to copy anymore. Our political situation is just a joke – we have deregulated and sold of government assets far more than France has. Norway has a hard right social conservative mess in government. Sweden is a political mess where no constellations are viable anymore and on the verge of a re-election. I don’t know about Denmark but last I checked they were totally dependent on the right-wing populists to get anything done in parliament.
Back to France. At first it seemed like the reporting was - the yellow vests are right-wing extremists and Le Pen followers. To some extent it still is and to some extent it’s true. But listen to what they want: Higher minimum wage, equal health insurance for all, lower prices on electricity, re-introduction of the tax on wealth, better pensions and a stop to the cutting of funds for post offices, police and childcare. This is for the most part a classic social democracy agenda. Something that has been all but extinct from European parliaments for at least 20 years.
The protest is clearly more Melenchon than Le Pen. But why did it come to protests? If we listen to the joker in chief Macron and his responses prior to the protests they were of the type, and I’m paraphrasing: ‘You have to cross the street to get a job’, ‘Your T-shirts don’t impress me – the best way to afford a suit is to work’. He might as well be a naive American.
Macron really is the Hillary Clinton of the EU isn’t he? He totally confused his support in elections for support of his politics. I have always had a genuine admiration for the French people’s sense of hands-on democracy. Be it farmers taking their tractors dumping manure on the Champs Elysees or yellow vests standing up, being counted.
In Swedish media Macron has been painted as some sort of forward thinking breath of fresh air in Europe. In France he has been described in a book titled “Macron le Suédois” because he takes so much inspiration from the Scandinavian countries. The problem here is that the Scandinavian countries have conformed to naive wishful liberal market capitalism for the last twenty years. We have nothing different or remotely unique to copy anymore. Our political situation is just a joke – we have deregulated and sold of government assets far more than France has. Norway has a hard right social conservative mess in government. Sweden is a political mess where no constellations are viable anymore and on the verge of a re-election. I don’t know about Denmark but last I checked they were totally dependent on the right-wing populists to get anything done in parliament.
Back to France. At first it seemed like the reporting was - the yellow vests are right-wing extremists and Le Pen followers. To some extent it still is and to some extent it’s true. But listen to what they want: Higher minimum wage, equal health insurance for all, lower prices on electricity, re-introduction of the tax on wealth, better pensions and a stop to the cutting of funds for post offices, police and childcare. This is for the most part a classic social democracy agenda. Something that has been all but extinct from European parliaments for at least 20 years.
The protest is clearly more Melenchon than Le Pen. But why did it come to protests? If we listen to the joker in chief Macron and his responses prior to the protests they were of the type, and I’m paraphrasing: ‘You have to cross the street to get a job’, ‘Your T-shirts don’t impress me – the best way to afford a suit is to work’. He might as well be a naive American.
I think the protesters show first of all a societal event supported by broad masses of the French population .... having poltical consequences.
That's quite something else as some xxx-wing extremists.
I saw a lot of newsmedia reports on it. Those coverages said mostly as much or more on their (the newsmedia's) political position and concerns, than on the people on the streets.
The last really big one in France, in 1968, De Gaulle in existential political problems, called them all commies.
And either he just fled (to a French army base in Germany) or used it for a political trick: He left the country shortly without anyone knowing where he was causing panic... called immediately for snap elections... it is me or chaos ... got 70% of the votes in that election. A year later he called for a referendum on a constitutional change with the same threat... it is me or not.... and lost the referendum, ending his political career.
Could you imagine something like that ever happening in Swedish politics ?
Anyway... Macron is in deep **** and as you say the protesters contents are boiling down to a social wellfare agenda that would fit a social democratic party. But do not underestimate that many populist rightwing parties have in their banners comparable social wellfare topics (unlike the Farrage Brexit, or Bolsonaro Brazil populists).
Even De Gaulle decreed a law before those 1968 protests that forced companies to give part of their profits to their employees.
France is different.
Last edited:
Akka
Moody old mage.
Estebonrober
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Ignorant American here, but the right wing in Europe has always general been social democrats right? They just want immigration squashed for a more "pure" Europe or something right?
In large part that is exactly like America. The right wing trump voters want a social safety net, they just don't want people they view as mooches taking part (immigrants). Never mind their own families generally have someone on disability or up to their ears in student loan debt.
In large part that is exactly like America. The right wing trump voters want a social safety net, they just don't want people they view as mooches taking part (immigrants). Never mind their own families generally have someone on disability or up to their ears in student loan debt.
Aleksey_aka_al
Smiley
France! Where’s your trébuchet? I demand Verbose report!
No. They are being listened to because they are mostly working stiffs who are expressing their anger over a government that is perfectly fine with making it harder for them to live just for the sake of "protecting the environment".
What we are seeing now is that the common man doesn't give a wooden nickel about the environment or climate change when protecting the environment starts negatively impacting them. I've been saying this for years and now I am finally being proven right. You want to protect the environment and fight climate change? Well you are going to have to find a way to do it that doesn't inconvenience people or you'll be met with the kind of resistance you are seeing now every single time.
Yeah, it's almost as if they think a government should take care of its own citizens before taking care of foreigners. Crazy idea...
Not at all. In eastern europe a few left wing parties are also the more nationalistic ones but in western europe the left and center left have kept some kind of internationalist culture.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
They like the parts of social democracy that benefit them personally, but are basically hostile to the overall project. The overlap in their demands with the left are, not exactly coincidental, but motivated by a desire for a more paternalistic social hierarchy, rather than, as on the left, hostility to social hierarchy as such. Healthcare, job security, these things are the due rewards of loyal subjects, not basic rights, and they are more than prepared to deny those who don't fit the bill of "loyal subject".
Estebonrober
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Yea this is how I see the right wing over here now more or less. They aren't really against the safety net they just want you to be deserving of it on their terms. Which generally means white and English speaking only, but could include minorities that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are worthy. Of course its taken for granted that whites here are worthy.
Estebonrober
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That seems like a dramatic shift for a big part of the republican party who used to be diametrically opposed to the "nanny state".
People.
What a sorry bunch of brats.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Sorry man, but you're patting yourself on the back too hard and too soon.
The fuel tax was the catalyst, but you'd be VERY wrong to think that it's the deep, real reason. It's first and foremost anger at the general policies of the government, and especially at what is perceived (with real reasons) as contempt for low-income households. It's been simmering for a long time and it's just reached the critical mass.
In fact, in many cases, these protests have actually joined the climate protests, as paradoxal as it may seems.
Mainly economic, against fuel price increases but now including a range of other issues, but Macron's policies like tax cuts for the wealthy and labour "reforms" that help employers have shown up his claims to be governing for everyone. Both rightwingers like Le Pen and leftwingers like Melenchon have tried to capitalise on the protests but I suspect they were as surprised by them as Macron was
Give us time.
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