Possible Future Direction (personal view)

C++ is not so hard.
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When you know two programming languages. Every next one is not so hard with some exceptions i think ;)

For me biggest problem is CIV 4 API. Where can i find good Civ 4 API reference online?
 
I sent this PM out earlier to as much of the team as I could think of. (sorry if I missed you)

Hydromancerx said:
C2C Team,

Modding C2C is something I love to do, so much I do it for free just like you guys do. However such a project doesn't pay the bills.

We know that C2C has been one of the most popular Civ4 mods and even Civ5 people come back to play our mod.

We have spoke before about the limitations of the Civ4 engine and our visions are grand, yet we have (and have had) a great team who is passionate about the game.

I would really like to do this for a living and I think we as a team could be successful as an Indie game team. The question is how to make that possible.

In which I ask you guys. If we could do what we do and get payed to do it would you? Could we make Caveman2Cosmos a real game and not just a mod for an existing game?

We are smart, creative and passionate people who love this stuff. We should be able to figure how to do it. Please help make this dream a reality. Lets put our head together and figure this out.

- Hydro
Click to expand...

So yeah. I would really like us as a team to develop A Caveman2Cosmos indie game where we could have some more freedom to make it how we want as well as have some sort of source of income (even if its small).

I get told all the time by my family "why can't you get payed for that stuff?" And while the answer to that is its not our game. However what is it WAS our game? I just feel like we are missing out on a great opportunity.
 
I can understand using a new engine but its incredibly difficult to launch an indie game when the programmers/designers are not in the same room.

I could see it working if we use the open source engine Pyrogenesis of Wildfire Games, but it would still be an open source volunteered based project unless you can establish funding from an angel investor or a community. It will require forming a game company, and filling out business records, and would require a team of computer programmers, not just modifying XML. The XML code schema is copyrighted, so we would have to move to SQL or another data format.

We should revisit this idea in a year from now when C2C becomes polished with the inclusion of Multi-maps.
 
MrAzure said:
I can understand using a new engine but its incredibly difficult to launch an indie game when the programmers/designers are not in the same room.

I could see it working if we use the open source engine Pyrogenesis of Wildfire Games, but it would still be an open source volunteered based project unless you can establish funding from an angel investor or a community. It will require forming a game company, and filling out business records, and would require a team of computer programmers, not just modifying XML. The XML code schema is copyrighted, so we would have to move to SQL or another data format.

We should revisit this idea in a year from now when C2C becomes polished with the inclusion of Multi-maps.
Click to expand...

I agree with this to a certain extent. I'd be comfortable working on something open source, even similar to what Koshling originally suggested way back when in this thread. But making money off of it would involve a whole lot of responsibility that is really hard to get when we are spread halfway across the world.

I'm open to working on any AXXXXE project that starts, but given how old this thread is I'm not necessarily hopeful that anything will happen.
 
The biggest possible problem I see with that is that as far as I can tell the team mostly consists of game designers and content developers, while you don't have too many programmers and artists. Developing a game engine from scratch takes a lot of time, and even adapting an existing one to your needs is no walk in the park. Also some of the art resources you use seem to be copyrighted. While this isn't a problem for a mod, it would be a problem for an independent game.

Also XML is an open standard, and I'm not sure if you even can copyright database design. Though of course original content is.
 
Well, if adding money into the mix and doing this sort of thing as a job, I would be working on this every day with a passion. So long as Python isn't being used. I've done a lot of research into this area before with a lot of promising answers.

The first engine I would look at for this type of project is UDK or the Unreal Dev Kit. It's free to use and allows anyone to make a game to deliver to the masses for free. Should a game be sold commercially, it is possible to wait to pay (without interest) for funds to come in from any source, whether it's crowd funding or a publishing company then buy a licence before sales.

As for a scattered team across the globe, it's been done before several times. The latest and most successful group actually came from the Bethesda modding community. The company is called Druid Gameworks and is putting out an Elder Scroll-esque adventure fantasy game called Unwritten.

As for programmers and artists, I can fill both positions equally well, using GIMP for self-made photo-realistic images/textures and Blender for 3D meshes. Both are free to use for commercial purposes.
 
In my opinion, what would make it worthwhile to move the project to an independently developed game from scratch would be to make it a for profit venture. We would have to work up a method of division of payment and we'd also have to work out how to make it profitable even during the development process. I do have ideas for this ;) We might not make a LOT right away but perhaps eventually.

That said, the name of the game in the beginning would be PLANNING. And a lot of it. And then more of it. And then some more still. All before we even begin to see anything really manifest.

We would HAVE to differ the game engine in very serious ways or else we become just a civ wannabe. That said, we can certainly take advantage of the basic concept - we would just need to really put together some new ways of doing things altogether. Again... I have some ideas for that. But it would take a lot of discussion just to propose these things.

What I think we'd need to realize is that we would be letting C2C as we know it now drift from the development table so we could focus on the new project almost entirely. Not sure we're ready for that yet but then again I'm not sure we aren't.

In all honesty, the best thing we could do if we're really serious about this is immediately take this discussion to an off-site forum specifically for that purpose. From there we could identify all the elements of the game and begin to discuss how we would REALLY want to approach those game elements and dynamics with the assumption that we really can have it all the way we want it provided we can do so within the limitations of the programming skills and time the team has at its disposal, which at the moment is probably a little limited.

Point being... we start discussing from a position of as wishful thinking as we'd like and then begin to consider how to make it happen.

And keep in mind, even this project would take a long time to really begin to manifest into something not only playable but in any way profitable. But we could discuss there how we can derive and distribute an income stream from it as well.

However, let it be said that I'm of the very firm opinion that we have a rare opportunity in our lives at this juncture to consider a route that could very well make us all quite financially comfortable while at the same time offering us a career path which we could derive great enjoyment from simply taking part in. But it wouldn't be for us if we could not lock on to a nearly infinite sense of patience with results in all stages of development.
 
We should wait to embark on this proposal until a few versions down the line, once Caveman2Cosmos is in a more complete stage, especially after the Combat Mod is complete and C2C is in a more polished state with Transhuman Era, Galactic Era reworked. If we do this, and if we have Assets, we could do start the game at the Precambrian. I am a strong proponent of around Version 40 or 45 to find how we can add an Era before Prehistoric.
 
@Civ Fuehrer

Yeah I have graphics skills as well. Mot of which are not really used in C2C because the fact its easier to find pre-made stuff that looks better. its all about motivation. Is it better to hand draw every icon/button and take forever making one building or is it better to grab pre-made stuff. In a mod situation ofcouse the pre-made. But I suppose if we are making our own the custom made art become mandatory. And I am cool with that.

I do have a question about the kickstarter stuff. I have some some succeed but others get canceled. What happens to the money if a kickstarter fails? Do they keep the money people donated? Do they get sued? Like hows that work?

@TB

And yes I realize if we started on an Indie game that would mean Civ4 C2C would basically end. Aside from not getting multi-maps yet I am happy with wt we have accomplished and would like to take as many ideas as we could from it to incorporate into a new game.

While I understand we need to keep C2C from being a clone of civliztion I think we also have to respect its roots as a civ4 mod. A balance with the two I think would lead to good game.

I agree we would need to find somewhere else to discuss this if we were serious enough about and confident enough it could really happen. I am both excited and scared about this. Its such a big risk if it could actually be done and leaving modding civ4 to do it is huge as well.

We also have to realize that we have at least come to the point in technology where we CAN make games without having to be a huge game company. Others have done it and we could too if we want.

I think we are coming from a good spot though. We have already made a mod and have worked together despite being all over the world. We have already done this without pay so any income become icing on the cake. We have known for a long time that if we want to make the game the way we envisioned it we need to get a new game engine. Its just a matter of doing it.

People always say "do what you love and you will never work a day in your life." And this is how I feel about C2C. Its something that I love and really its sometimes hard but it out weighs the downside. I know a real project will be even harder, but the reward could be that much more. And who better to do it than with my friends (you guys).
 
Is it really child working then? I germany (and I'm pretty sure other countries as well) a lot of <18 years old have jobs like babysitting, carry out Newspapers, work in shops and sell things...

I'd love to get paid for doing this cool stuff, but I can see a few downsides:

1) If we get paid for it, it becomes more serious. Right now it is more a "I don't want to make these buildings today, meh, I can do them tomorrow" attitude. But if money plays a role I'm afraid that there will be due dates and you feel like you HAVE to mod even if you really don't feel like doing so. Also, other people on the team may become angry when someone missed a due date.

2) How much people earn from this will depend on what they do. For example, I think DH or Koshling (as examples) should earn more money then I do. Not because they do more and spend more time on modding here than I do, but because they have WAY more skills than I and are more needed then I am. I know that and I'd be cool with it because for me it's still a hobby and if I get paid, no matter how it is, it would be really great. But it could make some people jealous if they don't understand why they get paid less then someone who spend less time modding then them. You know what I mean?

3) If we really wanna do this for money, then some of us need to spend more time for this and need to enhance their modding skills. I for myself really don't know what I will do in 1.5 years from now. I'm moving to australia for a year soon to finish my master's degree. And then? PHD? Get a real job? Where will I life? It would be even enough time to have a child by then! The point is, I really don't know how much C2C time I will have then. I don't even know how much it is during my Master thesis :crazyeye: And I bet I'm not the only one.
 
I see this as one of my hobbies so I will more than likely stay at CivFanatics and Civ 4. We should make/use a new engine first.It would take a year or two to have a version 1 of an indie game, imagine how much longer it will take to make a C2C. You would need a prototype to show gamers. Maybe in a year we can talk about making an indie game, but we should finish C2C first.
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Civ Fuehrer

Yeah I have graphics skills as well. Most of which are not really used in C2C because the fact its easier to find pre-made stuff that looks better. its all about motivation. Is it better to hand draw every icon/button and take forever making one building or is it better to grab pre-made stuff. In a mod situation ofcouse the pre-made. But I suppose if we are making our own the custom made art become mandatory. And I am cool with that.

I do have a question about the kickstarter stuff. I have some some succeed but others get canceled. What happens to the money if a kickstarter fails? Do they keep the money people donated? Do they get sued? Like hows that work?
Click to expand...

There are libraries online where you can grab art for a royalty, but it's a lot cheaper just to make our own stuff. Plus with custom made art we can set our own art style. Just wouldn't look right if we have a cartoon building here and a photo-realistic building there.

For Kickstarter, if a project fails all the money gets refunded to the audience. However, before anyone can even think about doing a kickstarter, the game would have to be in a very late pre-alpha build in order to get a demo started for the display. Then of course the promissory gifts for donations like a t-shirt or digital/physical copy of the game, an alpha/beta key or a signed poster, etc. However, it is possible to do a multi-staged kickstarter. Say we get a video describing the game, get some concept art and animations in there, maybe an inside view on the engine we've created, set a low goal. There's the software licencing costs as well as music costs and money for future ads. Then in late-alpha stage, make a demo video of the game, an in-detail description of the game and some really cool features. Make it a nicely placed goal. There's your developing funds for the birthing company, copyrights as well as publishing money. Use the earlier money for ads on the early beta, get ad revenue and the company would be in full-swing and releasing the product, already conceptualizing patches, DLC or a new game as the game's revenue swing the company into the indie competition. Of course this whole thing would take at least two years if the team works dedicatedly on it every day. Then there's the AAA companies who would take 5 years because they don't have passion but just money telling them what to do.

Keep in mind that as an indie game company, we don't have restraints set by publishing companies for function concepts. Where 2K games limited Firaxis in what they can put in Civ, indie companies can do what they want, when they want. We can make every single unit a multi-faceted AI with no restraints on what it can do where publishing companies would put a lock on them, saying to keep the units a simple AI for example.

@Hyrdomancerx
I would say that art style would be great for conceptualizing what we're building. Where you can make a picture, the entire team inputting their opinion to you, you then change the scene in some way until everyone is in agreement on a scene or a character, etc. and the final picture would go to me where I make 3D asset meshes and textures to put in the game.


@Everyone

If yall would like, I could host a Sourceforge project on this and make everyone on the team admins for the forum. It can sync with SVN and Google Docs/Code/etc. I can put up a Google Docs Game Design Document there for everyone to contribute to.
 
Civ Fuehrer said:
There are libraries online where you can grab art for a royalty, but it's a lot cheaper just to make our own stuff. Plus with custom made art we can set our own art style. Just wouldn't look right if we have a cartoon building here and a photo-realistic building there.

For Kickstarter, if a project fails all the money gets refunded to the audience. However, before anyone can even think about doing a kickstarter, the game would have to be in a very late pre-alpha build in order to get a demo started for the display. Then of course the promissory gifts for donations like a t-shirt or digital/physical copy of the game, an alpha/beta key or a signed poster, etc. However, it is possible to do a multi-staged kickstarter. Say we get a video describing the game, get some concept art and animations in there, maybe an inside view on the engine we've created, set a low goal. There's the software licencing costs as well as music costs and money for future ads. Then in late-alpha stage, make a demo video of the game, an in-detail description of the game and some really cool features. Make it a nicely placed goal. There's your developing funds for the birthing company, copyrights as well as publishing money. Use the earlier money for ads on the early beta, get ad revenue and the company would be in full-swing and releasing the product, already conceptualizing patches, DLC or a new game as the game's revenue swing the company into the indie competition. Of course this whole thing would take at least two years if the team works dedicatedly on it every day. Then there's the AAA companies who would take 5 years because they don't have passion but just money telling them what to do.

Keep in mind that as an indie game company, we don't have restraints set by publishing companies for function concepts. Where 2K games limited Firaxis in what they can put in Civ, indie companies can do what they want, when they want. We can make every single unit a multi-faceted AI with no restraints on what it can do where publishing companies would put a lock on them, saying to keep the units a simple AI for example.

@Hyrdomancerx
I would say that art style would be great for conceptualizing what we're building. Where you can make a picture, the entire team inputting their opinion to you, you then change the scene in some way until everyone is in agreement on a scene or a character, etc. and the final picture would go to me where I make 3D asset meshes and textures to put in the game.


@Everyone

If yall would like, I could host a Sourceforge project on this and make everyone on the team admins for the forum. It can sync with SVN and Google Docs/Code/etc. I can put up a Google Docs Game Design Document there for everyone to contribute to.
Click to expand...

Jawohl, mein Führer! (I wouldn't have thought that I would ever write that :eek: )
You described the different strategies very insightful.

I'd plea for a double-strategy like the MMO WarThunder has it - the base game is for free and they add stuff like units and maps and other content every day, also for free but if you want some extras like special units you can for pay it, also if you want to have access to special new features like ground warfare instead just aerial fighting (in our case something new like multimaps) that are just developing or you earn your access to it by playtesting etc.

So, basically, the way would to be a hybrid of free base game and "paid for" special developement, maybe even customized content on the players wish. The factory for content, the SVN, as the backbone of the whole machine.

What about creating a "currency" within SVN: on the one side creating content gives you some sort of credit and on the other side you can use it for requesting other stuff, like implementations of all sorts.


Also, you could have a kickstarter process within the game. Lets say a game designer lays out an interesting idea like multimaps, describes the expected functions, its impact on gameplay and the balancing path. A rich guy sees the idea and wants it in the game asap.
He funds the project with credits he purchased on the website. The original designer of the idea gets some credit if it is funded, the developer, of course, gets some more credit and the rich guy gets the feature.

An other example: lets say a poor guy has made some models someone else requested earlier.
After saving some credits for some of those jobs, he finally also could buy the multi-maps idea feature if no rich guy would show up to order it yet.

Or possibility #3: lets say two betatesters each pay half the credits for the realization of the feature, so they pool funds to have it implemented.

If your request has been implemented, the developer gets some credit from your account which you maybe gained before by making some art for units someone else requested who got his credits for betatesting the initial developers implementation for you...
This system works better for larger communities where not everone knows the body of work of everyone else.
(And a new game would have a bigger community in the end, again, see WarThunder with 5 million players by now.)

Besides, the hotness of features would regulate the price of the items. If someone really likes to play a certain way but the most people don't the price would be higher as the request for it would be lower. But if its implemented and getting popular the original founder of the feature would get some revenue out of it. Statistics of used features could be made and determine the revenue... or something like this.

There could be pools for ideas, if everyone of lets say 1000 people would throw in each like 1 credit of their reserves, a cool feature could be created in no-time and the gamedesigner & coder would also get paid for it quickly - the incentive is there for progress and not just the amateurship we have now (amateur in the french sense of "lover of it").

The more users participate and create stuff and request stuff the more revenue would be generated in the end.

The main money source would not be selling the game itself but selling its customized progress, so to speak. Every once a while there would be updates for the community but the icing on the cake, the spice in the soup would be built and paid for at the same time, so the process of working is paid for.

People could donate content they paid for or they could re-monetarize it. So the next one buying their exclusive feature would still have to pay lets say 90% of the original costs, the next one 80% etc... After the 10th ingame buyer, the feature would become common content In the end, financing a feature could even pay off and give profit - or the investment amortizes at least!

It also could be waited for lets say a secound buyer and then be donated to the community. The original buyer could set the price for the resale of his item himself. Maybe one wantes to resell it for 50% and then donate. Another one wants the secound to pay 10% credits, the third 9% and the xth each 1% so he wouldn't donate the feature perse unless a certain sum has been accumulated in total. The buyer could speculate on the exlusivenenss of his bought content.

The game would be regulated by the main developers, disallowing certain things and steering the possible mechanisms of trade. (ethical economy)


People developing wouldn't get rich with this but could draw out a special amount of their ingame earned credit into real money after having met certain "developer" conditions (and depending on the total "real" income of the company, aside the user-created credits)
and on the plusside poor people could also participate by "working" for the progress they want to see, much like betatesting, art creating, and all stuff we do right now, but you had a self-sufficient system in place for larger audiences and communities and you could also sell progress to rich guys at the same time - progress that all benefit from in the long term.



So, the strategy could be semi-monetary. Of course the rest of the path with pre-adding, conceptional designing etc would still work as you described, CivFührer.


The good thing with a system like the one I described above is that progress is nearly infinite. It could very well be that the game at one points stops being a game -- and evolves into (part of) something else, far bigger . Like a universial robotic machine, "simulating" the universe once the universe is equally cool everywhere, creating a singularity and saving our information sets to the other side of time... Remember what Zappara said! (see sig)^^ I really wonder what he's up to these days...
 
Again, I'd love to get into a lot more details like those DRJ is considering above. But I REALLY feel we need a forum first. Who's capable of getting us a bb forum up and running for these discussions? Primarily, aside from SOME security, I'm also thinking we would need the organization of the forum mechanism to be able to carry on meaningful conversations on given topic matters.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Again, I'd love to get into a lot more details like those DRJ is considering above. But I REALLY feel we need a forum first. Who's capable of getting us a bb forum up and running for these discussions? Primarily, aside from SOME security, I'm also thinking we would need the organization of the forum mechanism to be able to carry on meaningful conversations on given topic matters.
Click to expand...

As I said, I can host a sourceforge project which includes a private forum, file structures, SVN/Google syncing. But if it needs to be bb code then you're outa luck.;)
 
Ah... didn't realize it'd include a private forum. Yeah, go for it and give me some links so I can explore the environment once you've got it setup somewhat.

About that too... how does the SVN/google docs synching work? I mean... what does the synching do for us exactly?
 
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