Possible New Techs

[Deon]

I have not been ignoring your proposed new techtree, although it must seem that way. I wanted to get version 9 released, which I have just done. Next thing up is to review your proposal for the techtree.

Well, I thought that you ignored it because you totally disliked it, that's why I stopped making it .
Anyway, 9 is up for some time and I'll look into it.
Also, do you like the gasolin pipe building from Sevo? I think it fits for the mod.

 

[arkham4269]

I do not necessarily agree with all and everything (i.e. the order), but the tree is a good effort - a good collection of potentially usable Post Apocalyptic themed Tech-Names.

I agree. However, I think the main thing that must be remembered in making a tech tree is much of the research time/cost needs to be less off discovering the technology than reconstructing what is needed. For example, at the beginning of the game, there would be enough people alive to help teach people the basics, say of medicine, the need for hygiene, germ theory and the like. However, to get to the point of of invasive surgery, you'd need to have mastered chemistry again to, cultivated some sort of opiate or be able to make/use ether, not to mention have the facilities that will have the lights, is clean and the like.

I have often touted S.M. Stirlings "Island in the Sea of Eternity" books and I'd also seriously recommend the whole Eric Flint (et al) series 1632. especially the associated "Grantville Gazette" which is available in book and online at http://www.grantvillegazette.com/. Both stories are about a future city thrown back in time, the first to around 1200 BC the other to (obviously) 1632. All these stories deal with up-timers having to make do with less. A lot of these stories show that BIG problem is that often times people know how to do certain things, but they often lack critical elements or more often chemicals that today are easily mass produced. So a lot of the initial problem is assessing what they have, what they can salvage (1632 shows how important machined bolts and screws are and how long it takes to make them by hand) and then what will the need to go forward from there.

Plus, I'm sure there would be a lot of times at the beginning of the game, 20 years after the event, the group might have the tools and the resources, but might lack some critical bit of knowledge. Sort of like knowing how to build a car, but no one knows how to create ball-bearings. That's where I believe that the goody huts shouldn't just gift you with a technology, but represent some person with knowledge, some critical book or some tool that could be copied so that a good hut would give you a bonus toward a technology. It would be nice if there could be a way for it not have to be the tech your researching but that's probably not possible.

So I'm thinking that many of the first techs would represent a lot of these cottage industries that make many of our basic techs work. As mentioned above, Chemistry would probably be one of the first critical techs prior to a lot of other techs like medicine or gas extraction and the like.

Again, I recommend these books. Best of all, in the Grantville Gazette, they have these works at the end of the book where people discuss the feasibility of certain projects. I'm getting ready to read "Drillers in Doublets" which is all about different power sources from coal, oil, water and the like.

 

[arkham4269]

I would for now keep out Religions. While you are most probably right, about some cults spreading among the survivors, the Vision idea is interesting enought. We can't have both visions and religions...

Personally I think religion should be put back in the game. However, I think it doesn't matter what religion a Civ has, it is the type of religion that is important. Taking a page from the game Europa Universalis, I think that different religious modes would give certain advantages as well as disadvantages.

A quick example might be like so (and the labels are off the top of my head and in no way are related to any specific religion.
* Evangelical: They want to spread their religion and would give their Civ either an expansion/recon bonus or maybe a religious specific missionary unit. Downside would be a lower tolerance for other visions/religions and perhaps more unhappy faces if their religious % is low.
* Fundamentalist: Militant in the idea they they have The Truth(tm) so this religion might either give some sort of military bonus (perhaps a Crusader unit or promotions) or might lessen some of the disadvantages of more autocratic styles of government since the Leader is ordained by the Higher Power to be the Leader.
* Orthodox: A religion that believes in going back to basics. This would only work if the game is set up for multiple paths to victory where going low tech is a viable option. These would be the Luddites who believe technology is evil and would want to seek it out and destroy it. So while they'd get a drag on their research, they'd get a bonus expansion and perhaps automatic bonus promotions for units like crossbow.
* Utopian: Belief system that this world is the focus of life instead of an afterlife. See the Apocalypse as a way to start over and 'correct the mistakes of the past'. Probably get a culture bonus and maybe a bonus toward ecology for being sort of 'green'.
* Humanist: Atheistic/Deist ideal where the focus is less Deity centered and more Human centered. Would get science promotions and bonus toward certain buildings. Wouldn't get churches/temples, but might have a specialty building like Academy or libraries might act as 'weak' temples.
* Mystic: Concerned with more inner ideals and philosophy as well as a focus on the arts as worship. Would get a small science boast as well as culture and might have access to the 'entertainer' unit which can add culture. Would take a big hit for going to war.

Again, these religions would be in addition to governments and Vision. I mean if you look at almost every major religion, you have sects that mimic most of those above. Plus it allows the player to more customize their playing style. I mean if you are an aggressive player, you might want to pick a religion that either helps militarily or helps culturally to help battle war weariness.

I don't think this interferes with the Vision, since as I see it, Vision is more of philosophy that drives the Civ and is driven by the Leader. Religion is more personal and is something the Leader has to contend with. History is full of examples where the Leader wants one thing and the priests and/or worshipers want another.

 

[Refar]

I don't think this interferes with the Vision, since as I see it, Vision is more of philosophy that drives the Civ and is driven by the Leader. Religion is more personal and is something the Leader has to contend with. History is full of examples where the Leader wants one thing and the priests and/or worshipers want another.

It might not interfere from the metaphysical point of view. There is however only one game mechanic - which is currently used for visions. Adding back religions means removing visions.

 

[KillerClowns]

It might not interfere from the metaphysical point of view. There is however only one game mechanic - which is currently used for visions. Adding back religions means removing visions.

Actually... nothing is being done with corporations right now. We could leave capitols at the religion's slot, and put these religions in the corporation spots.

 

[Refar]

But there is no AI reaction to Corporations - no one will hate you because you run the wrong corporation, no one will bug to swith corporations... And from wht i see in the files, it can not be easily added, because it is just not there...

 

[arkham4269]

But there is no AI reaction to Corporations - no one will hate you because you run the wrong corporation, no one will bug to swith corporations... And from what i see in the files, it can not be easily added, because it is just not there...

Well I think that in Fury Road, your religion isn't how you're going to win. So I think religion should be put into the Corporation slots and keep Vision in the Religion. I think this is especially useful if you have religions having advantages and disadvantages built into them which is more like a Corporation.

However, I don't think that spreading your religion should be as much of a focus unless you have the Evangelical or Fundamentalist trait. The Fury Road world is dangerous and not to many people are going to pair, jump on bikes and hit the road to spread The Word. So I think that depending on the religion, there would be a percentage chance to receive missionary units every turn that would be rather low so mostly religion would spread 'naturally' by the computer and less by player actions.

As I said initially, I believe that religion allows the player to tweak their Civ better, allow them access to Religion specific buildings and units as well as giving them advantages and disadvantages. Ideology these days tend to be political/philosophical so the Vision victory makes sense. That being said, I don't see why one of those Visions can't be some form of "Theocracy" since that Vision would be "Our Vision is Anointed by God" and thus it really doesn't matter what religion it is, just that people believe that they indeed have The Truth(tm).

 

[jefmart1]

I agree. However, I think the main thing that must be remembered in making a tech tree is much of the research time/cost needs to be less off discovering the technology than reconstructing what is needed. For example, at the beginning of the game, there would be enough people alive to help teach people the basics, say of medicine, the need for hygiene, germ theory and the like. However, to get to the point of of invasive surgery, you'd need to have mastered chemistry again to, cultivated some sort of opiate or be able to make/use ether, not to mention have the facilities that will have the lights, is clean and the like.

I have often touted S.M. Stirlings "Island in the Sea of Eternity" books and I'd also seriously recommend the whole Eric Flint (et al) series 1632. especially the associated "Grantville Gazette" which is available in book and online at http://www.grantvillegazette.com/. Both stories are about a future city thrown back in time, the first to around 1200 BC the other to (obviously) 1632. All these stories deal with up-timers having to make do with less. A lot of these stories show that BIG problem is that often times people know how to do certain things, but they often lack critical elements or more often chemicals that today are easily mass produced. So a lot of the initial problem is assessing what they have, what they can salvage (1632 shows how important machined bolts and screws are and how long it takes to make them by hand) and then what will the need to go forward from there.

Plus, I'm sure there would be a lot of times at the beginning of the game, 20 years after the event, the group might have the tools and the resources, but might lack some critical bit of knowledge. Sort of like knowing how to build a car, but no one knows how to create ball-bearings. That's where I believe that the goody huts shouldn't just gift you with a technology, but represent some person with knowledge, some critical book or some tool that could be copied so that a good hut would give you a bonus toward a technology. It would be nice if there could be a way for it not have to be the tech your researching but that's probably not possible.

So I'm thinking that many of the first techs would represent a lot of these cottage industries that make many of our basic techs work. As mentioned above, Chemistry would probably be one of the first critical techs prior to a lot of other techs like medicine or gas extraction and the like.

Again, I recommend these books. Best of all, in the Grantville Gazette, they have these works at the end of the book where people discuss the feasibility of certain projects. I'm getting ready to read "Drillers in Doublets" which is all about different power sources from coal, oil, water and the like.

In my tech tree Chemistry is early, but the earliest techs were things I thought people would need to relearn mostly because we take them for granted now. For example, we take our government and its mechanisms (ie the vote) for granted. But we were posed an interesting question in a poly sci course once: What would happen and what would you do, if tomorrow you woke up and the govenrment and police had been zapped by aliens?

One girl immediately responded with "Well, I would wait until someone reformed the government..." Everyone else nodded. I said " Well, I would take my guns and go take any car I liked and grab all the resources necessary for me to survive..." The teacher loved that! The point is, that most people take all of the things that make society run properly, like water, electricity, phones, tv, and other services for granted. They also assume that people will just keep doing what they are doing. But what if currency was worthless and there was no one to make you pay for anything anyway, who would work?

We also take our knowledge for granted. What if the internet was gone? What if computers didn't work because of cyberwarfare and/or no power? Cities are burned or ransacked in this mod, and people may burn books for heat. How many texts with the existing knowledge would be left, and how many people who survive could understand and disseminate them?

Before any technlogies could be "relearned" first working societies would have to form and then relearn technology. My tree tries to show that. The order of the tree is very open for discussion, I was just trying to think as if I were in the situation what would be important to me. So it is heavy on military and production.

If you want good reading on this type of scenario/mod, read the In the Ashes series by William W Johnstone. Basically the world comes apart and the gov't fails. Criminals and others take advantage of it and rape and pillage. Warlords pop up and only those who fight for themselves and try to form working societies get by. People who expect handouts and depend on the kindness of others get taken advantage off and killed or enslaved.

 

[arkham4269]

We also take our knowledge for granted. What if the internet was gone? What if computers didn't work because of cyberwarfare and/or no power? Cities are burned or ransacked in this mod, and people may burn books for heat. How many texts with the existing knowledge would be left, and how many people who survive could understand and disseminate them?

The answer to that, unfortunately, hinges on one important things: How did the world end. Sure you can nuke all the big cities, but in many parts of the world, there are rural areas that are filled with lots of small communities that are consider 'dinky' by today's standards but are filled with plenty of stuff. Especially when you think that rural libraries will have lots of old books, many with info on how things used to be done. Knowledge in the age of print is a lot harder to stamp out. Every house could contain a Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Personally, I think your comment about grabbing your gun an leaving is telling. Each starting Civ is made up of people who probably where that proactive. As a 17 year Army vet I can tell you an organized group beats a mob every time. So all it takes is a group of people that collectively work together and they probably could save a lot. Certainly 20 years is a long time and bad things happen, but 20 years is also a long time people who knows what is needed (if only that there once was a way of doing it) to make sure they try to scavenge along the way. Sure your average refugee isn't thinking about the future, but if the game is just about tiny bands of humanity living hand to mouth after 20 years finally coming together, well then the End of The World was so catastrophic that I think it invalidates how much stuff would be left over.

If you want good reading on this type of scenario/mod, read the In the Ashes series by William W Johnstone. Basically the world comes apart and the gov't fails. Criminals and others take advantage of it and rape and pillage. Warlords pop up and only those who fight for themselves and try to form working societies get by. People who expect handouts and depend on the kindness of others get taken advantage off and killed or enslaved.

Well this is why I've pushed for slavery and maybe creating slaves when raiding cottages. People are the most important resource in Fury Road. Without them, you can't support enough of an infrastructure to 'project power' as we say in the military. Also, as I said, depending on your playing style you could go the Warlord route and grow your Civ by force or try to boost culture/safety and try to attract those refugees who don't want to end up in some Warlords serf collection.

 

[jefmart1]

I liked your Barb cities idea for that reason. That would represent those Warlords. I agree that slavery or "serfdom" would probably exist. It is likely a fuedal or semi fuedal society would come into being. Read Jared Diamonds Guns Germs and Steel, he talks about the formation of civilizations and how their social and governmental structure changes as they grow.

I feel that with the removal of our current form of government, and with limited resources, those with guns (ie the Power) would form a society that benefits them. IE slavery and serfdom in a fuedal state.

Like you say, organized groups would survive. So that begs the question who has the organization? In the US; likely it would be gangs, white supremacists, Hells Angels, survivalists, militia groups, and maybe small rural communities with their own guns and infrastructure. Also possibly, gov't or former gov't groups. Like Cheyenne Mountain (Jericho) or other military base, and maybe a group of FBI agents. Probably also, dynamic individuals would rally friends, family and others to form a society (like the Six in the Postman).

Now, in the long run, as the society grows; those systems and customs may have to change as more people get a say. In general more people are harder to control and require more democratic forms of government, and the people who survive are likely to be independent and strong willed (and also armed). So they will want more say and one persons influence or cult of personality will have less and less effect. Laws are required once you do not know everyone personally, and the more people, the more laws. Laws require enforcement and judges, etc. You get the point.

I know the mod takes place in Australia but I was thinking about a US scenario. And in the US, there are huge tratcs of land that are undeveloped and barely inhabited. Should there be a kill off of 90% of the population, there would be lots of open territory. It would not be unlikely to have bandits and warlords still roaming parts of the country hundreds of years later.

 

[arkham4269]

Read Jared Diamonds Guns Germs and Steel, he talks about the formation of civilizations and how their social and governmental structure changes as they grow.

I have, as well as Collapse. Plus it shows how important things like disease is in the history of man.

I feel that with the removal of our current form of government, and with limited resources, those with guns (ie the Power) would form a society that benefits them. IE slavery and serfdom in a feudal state.

Well that's the thing. That sort of Warlordism is the 'easy' route but it isn't always the best route. Biggest mistake people always make is to assume the "Strongest and the Fittest" is the Big Jock type. Often times its the glib person who can form alliances. Again, it goes back to what I say that it's important to have multiple paths to victory. I once asked a SCA type whether he preferred Baronies or Provinces. He said Baronies because you had one person running things and not a committee. There are times when having a strong central government is good (Union during the ACW) and when it's bad (Currently with our current 'cowboy' go-it-alone President). So I think that each style need definite advantages and disadvantages.

Like you say, organized groups would survive. So that begs the question who has the organization? In the US; likely it would be gangs, white supremacists, Hells Angels, survivalists, militia groups, and maybe small rural communities with their own guns and infrastructure. Also possibly, gov't or former gov't groups. Like Cheyenne Mountain (Jericho) or other military base, and maybe a group of FBI agents. Probably also, dynamic individuals would rally friends, family and others to form a society (like the Six in the Postman).

Well again, you have a lot of places where you'd just have a small towns that could form the nucleus for a culture. Take where I live in the Vancouver/Portland area. Survivors from this area are going to be very different in politics and ideas that survivors from Dallas or Atlanta. However, in Western WA/OR, there are plenty of small towns that I'd have a hard time seeing them totally destroyed because some of them would big enough to have a Guard armory or the like; or a Leader who gets things squared away so as to survive the hordes of refugees.

I know the mod takes place in Australia but I was thinking about a US scenario. And in the US, there are huge tratcs of land that are undeveloped and barely inhabited. Should there be a kill off of 90% of the population, there would be lots of open territory. It would not be unlikely to have bandits and warlords still roaming parts of the country hundreds of years later.

I think this mod screams to have regional scenarios. As I've posted before, your playing style is going to be different in Australia than in the US and things are going to be different in the SouthWest US as opposed to the Pacific North West or on the Eastern Seaboard. Plus, out here, we have less major cities clustered together to all get nuked at once. Take Oregon, except for Portland & Salem, you'd wonder if anyone would bother nuking Eugene or Medford or Ashland to say nothing of Bend or Madras. Yet you look at place back East and their are targets overlapping each other.

 

[Randomness]

I was just thinking about possible techs for this mod while I was playing FfH and thought it would be cool if different flavours had different locked tech lines. Basically I was thinking you could put the starting tech for each civ as a locked tech, like the religous techs in FfH. As an example I have included the preposed tech line for the Gians(reclaim the Earth) and Anti-Techs(tech brought us here, but it wont again) in the spoiler...

Spoiler :

"Gian"
Animal Trapping
Promotion:Trapping
10% chance of spawing a slave horse(like worker that can be sacrificed for production)when animal is defeated.
+50% againt animals


Forest Preservation
Improvement:Forest Preservation
Forest Preserve
+1Happy +1Healthy +1g
+10% chance of forest spreading to aject squares
worked 20 turns becomes

Improvement:Forest Garden
+2Happy +2Healthy +2g
+ 20% chance of forest spreading to aject squares

Animal Taming
Promotion: Taming
20% chance of taming defeated animals(you get unit you killed)
100%against animals
Unit:Huntsman
7Atk 3move
Starts with Promotions taming and sentry I

Forest Revival
Improvement:Tree Farm
+2production +2g +1Happy +1Healthy
+30% chance of spreading forest to aject squares
Worked 35 turns becomes
Hybred Tree Farm
+3production +3g +1Happy +1Healthy
+50% chance of spreading forest to aject squares
Workers can plant forest on grassland and plains

Animal Training
Unit:Rider(requires horses)
12Atk 3move
+50% in forest

Unit:Mounted Archer
14Atk 2move
50% in forest

Unit:Gaurd Dogs
8Atk 1move
+50% city def

Bio-Engineering
Promotion: Biohazardous
+100% against mele, archer, mounted,(everything not mechanical)

Unit:Bio-Warrior
18Atk 3move double movement in forest
Starts with Biohazardous promotion

Unit:Bioenhanced Worker
3move ignore movement cost
Builds improvements 50% faster

Improvement:Tree Asembly Line
+4production +5g +3Happy +3Health
+100% chance of spreading forest to aject square

Building:Bio-Dome
+3Happy +5Health

Building:Walking Woods
+100% city def
+50% against vehicles
+ 2 safety



"Anti Tech"
Crude Weponry
Unit:Bowman
10Atk 1move
+50%city def

Building:Baricade
+20% city def
+1 saftey


Military Trainning
Building:Training Camp
+2xp to units built in city
+1 safety

Promotionratice I
+10% Atk

Promotionractice II
+20%Atk
+50% against melee

Promotionractice III
+30%Atk
+100% against melee
+50% against mounted

Promotionractice IV
+40%Atk
+150% against melee
+100% against mounted
+50% against gun infantry

Promotionractive V
+50%Atk
+200% against melee
+150% against mounted
+100% against gun infantry
+50% againt vehicles


Disasembly Line
Promotionisasembly
+100% vs vehicles

Unit:Sabatour
8Atk 2move
Invisible
Starts with Disasembly and Comando

Buildingisasembly Plant
+20% vs vehicles
+2production +2safety
[/SIZE]

I have more coming, but what do you think so far? Should I bother coming up with more?

 

[davidlallen]

That's an interesting idea. I have not done much to "differentiate" the leaders/civs. In fact apart from the traits, there is no difference in play at all. I like the FFH idea where each civ has completely different units and strategies. But getting them all in and balanced is a tremendous amount of work. There is a thread where we were discussing unique units for each civ. I would probably start there. When I do more work on Fury Road, first I will redo the tech tree and get that balanced, then add unique units. So this type of "differentiation" may be further in the future.

 

[Vigilance]

What about a mutant tech tree, for the later periods, showing later generations are changing from the radiation?

 

[Jabie]

What about a mutant tech tree, for the later periods, showing later generations are changing from the radiation?

See the latest Leaderhead background for a society of mutants...

 

[arkham4269]

I was just thinking about possible techs for this mod while I was playing FfH and thought it would be cool if different flavours had different locked tech lines. Basically I was thinking you could put the starting tech for each civ as a locked tech, like the religious techs in FfH. As an example I have included the proposed tech line for the Gians(reclaim the Earth) and Anti-Techs(tech brought us here, but it wont again)

I have more coming, but what do you think so far? Should I bother coming up with more?

You might want to go back a bit in the messages and read some of my posts on this issue since I also talked about a Gaian and a Luddite faction. In regard to the Anti-tech Luddite faction, however, I've argued that to make the group work, the combat system must be balanced to where lots of low tech units can (if used effectively) beat a Civ with less higher tech units, otherwise it isn't worth the time and trouble.

 

[Randomness]

You might want to go back a bit in the messages and read some of my posts on this issue since I also talked about a Gaian and a Luddite faction. In regard to the Anti-tech Luddite faction, however, I've argued that to make the group work, the combat system must be balanced to where lots of low tech units can (if used effectively) beat a Civ with less higher tech units, otherwise it isn't worth the time and trouble.

When I posted the "Anti-Tech" tech line (which isn't all there I have more) I was thinking of guys that take anti tech to an almost religeous level. They don't just hate tech, they want to rid the world of it completely, by any means nessesary (even if that includes using the occational piece of technology) So I think your idea is great, but that isn't where I was taking my idea from. (In fact, at the end I put a tech that alows the Tech Apocolypce where 100s of EMPs are stolen and detenated, destroying all machinery, I know it's kinda hipocritical, but sometimes people are blinded by their cause)

 

[Vigilance]

See the latest Leaderhead background for a society of mutants...

Where is that?

 

[Vigilance]

I think some techs/units to make salvaging from ruins more active would be cool.

Maybe a Salvager unit that can fight a little, say Str 6 like a survivor, with bonuses against barbarians and animals, that you can send into ruins and have perform "explore" command, that takes 4 turns, and either turns up something good (refugees, lost tech, etc) or something bad (mutant animals, barbarians, etc).

 

[arkham4269]

When I posted the "Anti-Tech" tech line (which isn't all there I have more) I was thinking of guys that take anti tech to an almost religious level.

I get you. (In fact, I get you twice; the system must have burped and I lost my original response to this.)


In one of my previous post, I said that I felt the Luddites could represent people that felt technology was the root of the problem that brought about the Doom of Man(tm) in the same way as the bad guys in the old Charlton Heston film "The Omega Man" did.

I feel the Gaians will use technology, but they want a greener tech with a softer footprint on the Earth as well as they need tech to fix the damage done by the war. Anyway, there is a big difference between wanting to live a greener way and wanting to live like a Amish like existence.