Possible Use of HoF Mod for GOTM - now with POLL!

[ainwood]

OK - for the majority of people who want something simple, then it works as follows:

1. You install the mod (self-installing .exe file)
2. You start Civ4. You download the HOF version of the GOTM save file, load and play.
3. You want to look at someone elses GOTM game? Simply start Civ4, and "load game" - it will load the mod (or not) as required, depending on whether the game was played using the mod or not.

The only thing is that people who don't have the mod installed can't look at other people's installs.

 

[Greebley]

You could have 4 versions.
Adventurer without the mod
Contender without the mod
Contender with the mod.
Challenger with the mod.

and possibly
Adventurer without the mod
Challenger without the mod

Each one would be a different color like the colors we have now for the difficulty levels. It handles the point of being able to show that you play with the (more secure) mod, but also allows those that hate it or have macs to still play the GOTM.

I would think something like dark/light green/red/blue.

Edit: Does the mod handle crashes, power outages, and 2-4 year old boys who push the power switch Correctly?

 

[superslug]

Edit: Does the mod handle crashes, power outages, and 2-4 year old boys who push the power switch Correctly?

Yes, we've borrowed Microsoft code itself for such eventualities. In case of any of your listed events, the mod will signal your computer's power supply that electricity is no longer needed, promptly terminating any active software. The automatic eradication of any active data prevents it from falling into the enemy hands of terrorist lightning strikes or hacker toddlers.

 

[Dianthus]

Yes, we've borrowed Microsoft code itself for such eventualities. In case of any of your listed events, the mod will signal your computer's power supply that electricity is no longer needed, promptly terminating any active software. The automatic eradication of any active data prevents it from falling into the enemy hands of terrorist lightning strikes or hacker toddlers.

I think you forgot a smiley there somewhere!

@Greebley, what he really means is that it is YOUR responsibility to handle/avoid those cases.

 

[superslug]

I think you forgot a smiley there somewhere!

You're right, I was too subtle.

 

[Stormreaver]

You're right, I was too subtle.

Less is more, when it comes to smileys. If you need a smiley to tell the reader it was supposed to be ironic/fun, maybe it wasn't that ironic/fun.

No. I'm not going to put a smiley here.

 

[Conquistador 63]

@Mutineer: I assume you mean "HOF", not "GOTM". Please can you explain what spoilers the HoF mod contains?

Being a recent enthusiast of GOTM, and trying to help evaluate HOF Mod for GOTM use, I downloaded it and gave it a quick try while testing for GOTM8.

I am not sure about the definition of a spoiler, but found an interesting feature on the modified domestic advisor, namely in the world wonders tab: a table of your cities with the wonders that: are already built in it, can be built in it and can be built but are already being built by other civs, among other possible situations. At least it is what mouse over help says, not sure if it really works that way. But if it does, wouldn't it be a spoiler?

p.s. apart from this, I am really enjoying HOF mod, and if there is a GOTM save for it, I will surely use it.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I am not sure about the definition of a spoiler, but found an interesting feature on the modified domestic advisor, namely in the world wonders tab: a table of your cities with the wonders that: are already built in it, can be built in it and can be built but are already being built by other civs, among other possible situations. At least it is what mouse over help says, not sure if it really works that way. But if it does, wouldn't it be a spoiler?

That sounds odd to me, too. You should post the question in the HOF Mod support thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167346

 

[DaveMcW]

Here's a HOF mod game with a ton of wonders being built (deity game). But none of them show up on the domestic advisor, so it looks spoiler-proof.

 

[Denniz]

Being a recent enthusiast of GOTM, and trying to help evaluate HOF Mod for GOTM use, I downloaded it and gave it a quick try while testing for GOTM8.

I am not sure about the definition of a spoiler, but found an interesting feature on the modified domestic advisor, namely in the world wonders tab: a table of your cities with the wonders that: are already built in it, can be built in it and can be built but are already being built by other civs, among other possible situations. At least it is what mouse over help says, not sure if it really works that way. But if it does, wouldn't it be a spoiler?

p.s. apart from this, I am really enjoying HOF mod, and if there is a GOTM save for it, I will surely use it.

Here's a HOF mod game with a ton of wonders being built (deity game). But none of them show up on the domestic advisor, so it looks spoiler-proof.

Yeah, the original Mod (Modified Special Domestic Advisor) had a spoiler off/on option. Needless to say, we turned it off permanently when we incorporated it into the HOF Mod. It wasn't worth redoing the screens, though.

 

[Mad Professor]

Having looked carefully at it now, I am less concerned than I was. I posted earlier that if it became a compulsory feature of GOTM, I probably wouldn't play. My concern was having to have something on my computer as part of my game that I didn't like using. I see though that it is easy to avoid, switch off, not use etc., and that is a strength. In fact, if I want to, I can just leave my game so that I actually have to go out of my way to include the HOF mod each time I start the game...

Having seen it, I don't like it very much, but if it was compulsory for GOTM, I'd probably still play with it, but I'd probably not play with it much else, but everyone to their own preferences.

If you're a very good player, it probably wouldn't make any difference to your performance since you'd think of everything anyhow, but I think it would improve mine, though I didn't finish a game with it to prove that. For that reason I'd be uneasy about a GOTM where some were using it and some were not because I suspect it would not be an even playing field - though again I say I don't have definite proof of that.

My personal vote is don't use it, but it it is used, I'll still play GOTM with it.

Edited to correct some bad typing

 

[shadow2k]

Well having not played C4 since February, this will be my first month back playing again. I haven't had a comp capable of running C4 because I lost everything in a house fire. I came very close to replacing my main computer with a Mac. And if I had come back to CF (outside of off-topic) only to find that I was now excluded from participating in GOTM, I'd probably just stop visiting CF all together.

I don't see discriminating against Mac users as a valid option, and am disappointed that it's even considered. Despite the fact that I don't actually have to rely on using one. Having said that...I'm fairly sure that the Mac users can't use the SDK at this point anyway, so it's a moot point. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a Mac version of it anywhere, unless it's shipping with the Mac version.

I'm not sure why security would be the main issue here though. I mean, it's not like someone can't figure out 100 different ways to cheat at GOTM if they felt so inclined. The most basic one being the spoiler threads of course, but anyone who knows enough to use the SDK to jack with their saves will obviously be bright enough to do some other devious things. And not have any moral inclination not to have done so already.

I really don't see any good reason to make it mandatory. And depending on the staff, if they want to go through the extra work of including more saves each month, I couldn't care less if it's optional.

 

[AlanH]

Welcome back. I admire your taste (and maybe your courage) in considering getting a Mac to run Civ4 - see the local Mac forum for early reactions to the experience

You can find my current understanding of the status of SDK-based mods for the Mac version here. The reason it's being aired here is to ensure that all are aware of the implications of a mandatory mod, and can discuss them vs. the alternative of an optional one.

 

[shadow2k]

You can find my current understanding of the status of SDK-based mods for the Mac version here. The reason it's being aired here is to ensure that all are aware of the implications of a mandatory mod, and can discuss them vs. the alternative of an optional one.

Well my understanding is that the HOF mod is being considered in order to combat the risk of people messing with games using the SDK. So if Mac users are unable to use the SDK, there's no risk of them jacking with the saves.

When (if?) the SDK is released for the Mac, which would then create the security risk...wouldn't it be possible to use that SDK to also secure the game for them as well, just as it was done for the PC?

Personally, I don't like the idea of it being mandatory. But from what I can tell, making it mandatory at this point wouldn't put forth any reason to exclude Mac players at this point. The hole is the SDK, which they don't have access to.

 

[DaveMcW]

The protection on vanilla Civ4 saves is "security through obscurity". The Mac save format is identical to the PC format. Once the SDK is released on PC, all saves are vulnerable.

 

[DaviddesJ]

But from what I can tell, making it mandatory at this point wouldn't put forth any reason to exclude Mac players at this point.

From what I understand, someon e would have to create a version of the HOF mod for Macs, which contains the pieces that the Mac can support, and not the SDK-based pieces that it doesn't support.

Since the HOF-Mac mod would have a different signature than the current HOF-PC mod, Mac players would also need a different save file, for that mod.

It would seem a lot easier to just have the HOF mod be optional but not required for GOTM (which is what almost everyone seems to prefer, anyway).

 

[AlanH]

The security effects of the HoF mod go beyond making it difficult to edit the saves, and they are dependent on the HoF Mod's DLL which cannot be used on a Mac. that's nothing to do with the SDK - it was just the tool used to create the DLL.

 

[shadow2k]

The Mac save format is identical to the PC format. Once the SDK is released on PC, all saves are vulnerable.

That explains it. It doesn't matter if they can't use the SDK...because they could simply use a PC to do it.

I guess maybe I'm just naive as to what, exactly, can be done with the SDK that's undetectable. Or why using the SDK on a save file doesn't leave some sort of trace, similar to using world builder (I think that's what it's called, I haven't played in months).

 

[AlanH]

The SDK is just the source of detailed information about the save file format. Don't think of it as a saved game editor - it isn't. It allows new versions of major parts of the game software to be written.

 

[Denniz]

The SDK is just the source of detailed information about the save file format. Don't think of it as a saved game editor - it isn't. It allows new versions of major parts of the game software to be written.

I'll say. Between the SDK and the Python code in the Assets folder, we have 80-90% of the game's source code. You can do anything you want to how the game is played not just learn how to mess with the save file's contents.