Possible Use of HoF Mod for GOTM - now with POLL!

[drkodos]

DaviddesJ: I accept your opinion on the subject and respect your position, but cannot accept the "extended" chess metaphor. But it did make me laugh because it definitely extended it alright...to the point of silliness

I guess that was your intent. Point accomplished.

But I disagree on the analogy being of any use and here is why. Repeated checking of things in Civ is part of the game. Checking boxes for coins is not a part of the chess game. Analogies must be relevant to have the potential power to persuade.

Edited to add: Since there is no real "majority" but merely a plurality thus far, I will be interested to see which way things go in as much from a community perspective and also from a playing-the-GotM-in-the-future perspective.

Also, is it not possible to simultaneously agree with choice #2 & #3 in the poll?

 

[Obormot]

But I disagree on the analogy being of any use and here is why. Repeated checking of things in Civ is part of the game.

That is just bad game design And I agree with DaviddesJ about the analogy. Checking all that stuff every turn when you can get automatic alerts is just as silly as that chess example

And I just don't understand why are there so many people objecting to making the mod compulsory, since all the extra info can be turned off anyway if you don't like it, making the game equavilent to the unmodified one, but with added extra security.

The only thing that comes to my mind is fairness, but just try the mod out and you'll see that all those screens don't give the players that use them any advantage, they just save time. At least that is true for people who play to win an award/medal, because they would check all their cities every turn (no exaggeration, I do it) without the mod anyway. And if you are playing "just for fun", then why do you care about giving other people this little advantage?

 

[malekithe]

Also, is it not possible to simultaneously agree with choice #2 & #3 in the poll?

Not quite. There's a missing option 2.5, "Yes, but if it's compulsory, I won't play."

 

[ainwood]

But I disagree on the analogy being of any use and here is why. Repeated checking of things in Civ is part of the game. Checking boxes for coins is not a part of the chess game. Analogies must be relevant to have the potential power to persuade.

Maybe a better analogy would be that you're playing speed chess, and the rules get modified so that you don't need to say "check" when the king is threatened - so you have to waste precious time checking it yourself.

 

[ainwood]

Not quite. There's a missing option 2.5, "Yes, but if it's compulsory, I won't play."

...which is "Yes, make it optional".

 

[drkodos]

Maybe a better analogy would be that you're playing speed chess, and the rules get modified so that you don't need to say "check" when the king is threatened - so you have to waste precious time checking it yourself.

I see the point, and understand why people wish to use the mod.

However, I think the issue of greater security is a red herring. I also think the mod can make the playing experience significantly easier to manage, for better or worse.

It's just me, but I am loathe to adding yet another component/layer onto the playing situation when I do not need to.




FYI: There is no rule in chess requiring a player to say or state, "check" whether playing blitz or other time constraints.

 

[drkodos]

And I just don't understand why are there so many people objecting to making the mod compulsory, since all the extra info can be turned off anyway if you don't like it, making the game equavilent to the unmodified one, but with added extra security.

IF I think the info is a crutch AND Since I cannot turn it off for other people, the power of turning it off is of little value in the argument.

Not quite. There's a missing option 2.5, "Yes, but if it's compulsory, I won't play."

You got the point?! My real feelings are to let those that wish to useit to do so and others to not use it if they choose not to. Make it that simple. But I did not see that specific choice in the poll.....

 

[DaviddesJ]

Maybe a better analogy would be that you're playing speed chess, and the rules get modified so that you don't need to say "check" when the king is threatened - so you have to waste precious time checking it yourself.

That's exactly how speed chess does work: you're not required to say "check", and if your opponent fails to move his king out of check, you win by capturing the king.

If we were playing speed Civilization, and part of the competition were how fast (in real time) you can play, then I would agree with not adding play aids. In that case, there's a decision of how to spend your time, and one player might choose to check screens more often, while another player might get better results by checking less often but using the time for other things.

But time isn't part of the GOTM competition (some players already spend much more time on their games, than others), and so, in this case, it just comes down to players who play more slowly and get an advantage, vs players who don't have the patience to check every turn (or don't care that much) and are penalized for it.

 

[Murky]

LOL. Maybe there should be a time medal?

 

[malekithe]

...which is "Yes, make it optional".

That choice makes no statement regarding whether I intend to play if the mod is made compulsory. For instance, I would be willing to play regardless of the status of the HOF mod, but I still said the HOF mod should be optional. drkodos, on the other hand, might think the mod should be optional, but is not as willing to continue playing should the mod be mandatory.

I'm not saying the poll needs to be modified or anything, just that the choices provided might not accurately capture the spectrum of opinion. From the current results, I think you can draw some fairly clear conclusions, though.

 

[DaviddesJ]

That is just bad game design

I don't think the level of checking in Civ4 is bad design, really. The vast majority of people playing Civ4 don't care enough to check things every turn anyway. It makes sense for Firaxis not to add (and have to implement, test, debug) features that are only used by a small fraction of their player pool. These are exactly the sort of things that it makes sense for the modding community to add.

(I do think there are some evident shortcomings in some of the Civ4 advisors, but I don't think the lack of a customizable alerts system is really bad design.)

 

[drkodos]

But time isn't part of the GOTM competition

Think nearer the perimeter of the box: There is only ONE MONTH to finish a game and have it count. That is a time constraint.

KOYAANISQATSI

I don't think the level of checking in Civ4 is bad design, really. The vast majority of people playing Civ4 don't care enough to check things every turn anyway. It makes sense for Firaxis not to add (and have to implement, test, debug) features that are only used by a small fraction of their player pool. These are exactly the sort of things that it makes sense for the modding community to add.

(I do think there are some evident shortcomings in some of the Civ4 advisors, but I don't think the lack of a customizable alerts system is really bad design.)

Agree 100 percent, but why make it mandatory in order to compete?



Keep the tent flaps open and the tent as large as possible, I say.

I'm not saying the poll needs to be modified or anything, just that the choices provided might not accurately capture the spectrum of opinion. From the current results, I think you can draw some fairly clear conclusions, though.

Agreed.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Agree 100 percent, but why make it mandatory in order to compete?

I don't want it to be mandatory; I just want to be able to use it myself. In my opinion, the only substantial argument for making it mandatory is that it's easier for the GOTM administrators to deal with only a single game format.

(Looking ahead to the expansion, with and without the mod, that's looking like four different versions for them to support.)

So far, it seems that the poll is clearly favoring allowing the HOF mod but as a non-mandatory option. I hope the GOTM administrators will be able to do that.

 

[Obormot]

I don't think the level of checking in Civ4 is bad design, really. The vast majority of people playing Civ4 don't care enough to check things every turn anyway. It makes sense for Firaxis not to add (and have to implement, test, debug) features that are only used by a small fraction of their player pool. These are exactly the sort of things that it makes sense for the modding community to add.

Yes, I understand this stuff of course, I was just kidding

Agree 100 percent, but why make it mandatory in order to compete?

Well, it is OK for me to make it optional if it is really such a big problem to download and install the mod for many people Hopefully all the top players will start using it anyway, either for the playing aids, or just to make other people have more trust in their results, as DaviddesJ said already.

 

[azzaman333]

When Warlords comes out, it would probably be best to make 'vanilla 4' require the HOF mod. The GOTM staff already have COTM, 3OTM (PTW and Vanilla) and 4OTM, and having an optional HOF mod and Warlords (possibly w/HOF mod) adds another 3 potentially. And as it is now, with only the 3 competions the GOTM staff are "behind" on the results for 1 4OTM and 1 3OTM. (behind being more than 20 days after the completion of that XOTM)

 

[civ_steve]

Being a civ player using a machine that is marginal for playing CIV, I would greatly appreciate the playing aids mentioned as being part of the HOF Mod. Anything to decrease the time required to play the game would be very nice and would allow me (and others as well) to complete more GOTMs! As it is I have to decide on how much checking and managing to do, which definitely has impact on the competitive element of GOTM; a common set of aids would help level that aspect of the GOTM.

A security system for the saved game is a desirable bonus, and probably more important for the staff and competition.

I will choose option 2, yes but optional. If the staff feels it is too cumbersome to support 2 versions of each save, or if there is concern about hacking the game files, I have no problem with making the mod mandatory.

 

[Thrallia]

I've played through the early part of a test game for both the HOF mod and for GOTM8...I've come to two conclusions from that.

I would at this point vote yes, optional on the mod, and wouldn't mind if it was mandatory...and I still suck at archipelago maps, so don't expect me to be winning the GOTM this time around

 

[Murky]

There is a bit of snag when it comes to using the HoF mod for GoTM. How would the gotm staff go in and edit the save file when the HoF mod was designed to stop that from happening?

 

[DaveMcW]

There is a bit of snag when it comes to using the HoF mod for GoTM. How would the gotm staff go in and edit the save file when the HoF mod was designed to stop that from happening?

I'm sure the gotm staff is good enough to win the game without cheating.

 

[Murky]

I'm sure the gotm staff is good enough to win the game without cheating.

I didn't mean to imply they were intent on cheating.

Don't they typically do things like go in and remove the huts near your starting position?