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Post-Game Map Writeup

Discussion in 'BTS Multi-Team Demogame II' started by DaveMcW, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. slaze

    slaze Chieftain

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    Concerning the dyes, which is prolly my responsibilty, and I don't quite remember the exact exact reasoning, is that we just didn't have the priority. Efforts spent on things like gunpowder maybe, although looking back on it vaguely from now maye there wasn't the immediate need and we could have slipped calender in. I think farms also had something to do with it although i do remember running unhappiness at times and just sorta, taking it. But we were backward, man, what can I say. Not so much a rookie mistake, research had been pretty well called off, and we just didn't make it.

    And by the way sommer, the middle part of your sig I'd hardly call true. From my perspective i'd say you're streching things pretty good.
     
  2. whb

    whb Chieftain

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    How is your cat these days?
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    The "rookie" stuff was just toungue and cheek of course:p... a "little sauce for the goose" as they say, since Mavs were calling AMAZON "rookies" ;). Plus I was really more thinking in terms of why Calendar wasnt a top priority like in the very beginning when Mavs were building Pyramids and such. I mean it was pretty clear we had to get AH right away for the sheep.

    Anyway, slaze... and I can't say this enough times and strongly enough... You Are The MAN :bowdown:. And not just because you're so boss for staying and fighting against insurmountable odds, which in and of itself means you should get a CFC Medal of honor or something :hatsoff: but on top of that:

    1. You took over 2 civs with low (or no) participation. I cant imagine what a pain that was:sad:
    2. You fought to the death, I mean all the way down to the last man:eek: Wow!
    3. You really fought so expertly and made it so hard for us to invade. I mean this was so important, because it really was such a challenge to take you on. Honestly I dont think I could have even invaded you it in a million years, lucky 2metra was around cause I was at a loss:dunno:. I was honestly in fear that you would get Astronomy, and get off that island and slaughter us for sure.:scared: I know it is a real sacrifice to stay and fight a losing battle just to preserve the fun for other players, and I want you to know that I appreciated it greatly.
    4. You played on through what must have been very frustrating Espy attacks. I have to say I was so impressed with the clever ways you kept staying out of STRIKE status for so long.
    5. Despite the situation you were in, you kept probably the best Turn log of any team in the game. So many screenies, which I know from experience, are a HUGE pain in the @ss to keep taking and uploading and then downloading. I can't even imagine what that's like when very few if any people on your team are even looking at them. I mean you had to have been thinking that you were doing it for the post game, and I can't express how much I appreciate that:clap: Thanks so much for that great turn log slaze. I am reading every post and looking at every screenshot you took:goodjob:

    6. There are many more reasons that you are just so boss, but I've gone on long enough I guess:blush:

    No stretch here, just a very simple matter of all other teams quit, except Team Kaz, who refused to quit (Kaz was leading in score when everyone else quit BTW). If you are playing a game and everyone else quits, you win by default (*especially if you have the highest score when they all quit). I don't think that's a stretch at all. Remember, that this was my language used for the announcement for this game. I've had this sig since then. I'd say the time to make that argument was two years ago not now :deadhorse:.

    But as you say its "your perspective" / your opinion and you're entitled to it:)... hey, you can write your sig, and I'll write mine... live and let, and all of that;). Or, if you prefer, I mean you know me, I love to argue to the death with 2000 word posts on any and every topic so we can do that if you like:D, but let's at least move that argument to the old MTDG thread where it belongs right?:mischief: This thread is for this game not last one:)

    Anyway, let me close by saying slaze is the f@ck!ng MAN! I can't believe what a stud you are and I will always refer to you as King slaze the Mighty:king: or Mighty King slaze or slaze the mighty, or some variation of that... you rock!:rockon:
    :confused: Huh? I don't own a cat. I'm more of a dog person TBH, but I haven't owned a dog in years. Or were you talking about Blubmuz:confused: I just don't get it...
     
  4. whb

    whb Chieftain

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    I misremembered -- it was your son. I genuinely hope he's well. Anyway, you were posting a big ol' rant mocking blubmuz for apparently threatening to rage-quit, and I couldn't resist quietly pointing out the irony.
     
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    . OK I get it now, thanks. :)

    So I guess my personal and public apology directly to you where I apologized to you and used the word apologize at least 5 times, wasn't enough?;):deadhorse:

    Ok, since you're clearly still a little sore about it.;) I apologize to you again for implying I would quit, and again, I say that in reality I would not have quit, but I said I would because I was trying to ARM twist for a reload.

    Now, about the comparison to Blubmuz... It's not accurate, because Blubmuz ACTUALLY quit. I have no issue with his threats to quit. I was poking fun at him ACTUALLY quitting following the admin ruling. Remember, the admins didn't rule in my favor either, they put it to a team vote. Don't forget the larger context of Blubmuz trying to blame his teammates for things that were his own fault. That's really what my comment was about... Not so much about the rage quit as much about ragequitting then blaming others.

    TBH, Mavs and Merlot had already basically lost at the point where the reload vote happened. The only teams that still had a chance to win at that point all voted for the reload...so the reload really had zero impact on the game... Just sayin':D

    Anyway it was still heavy handed and a little unsportsmanlike to threaten to quit (even an idle threat, which it was), so again, I apologize for that.:(
     
  6. whb

    whb Chieftain

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    You've long since been forgiven; that doesn't mean I'll let you live it down when you're flinging mud at other players though ;)

    You have a habit of assuming people must be "sore" if they don't agree with you. (A little way back in this thread you were bandying around equally silly accusations of "sour grapes" for thinking your idea for the next game is pants.) Nope, I simply found your rant about blubmuz to be ridiculously over-the-top, and where you were throwing stones decided to glibly remind you of the glassiness of your house. It was a quick and succinct one-liner (if I hadn't forgotten it was your son not your cat).

    (That's quite ok, I assure you even at the time we let you have your reload I'm pretty sure everyone already guessed your threat to quit was just a bit of foot-stamping to get your way.)

    Who cares. 90% of the players at the start of this game quit at some point. Even our first King left without trace after he was usurped, but nobody's ever likely to suggest it's some kind of problem or throw it in his face in any way. It's a two year game (nearly). It happens.

    :lol: Sorry, this'll be taken as ruder than it's intended, but your post puts the image in my head of Violet Elizabeth Bott, first making anguished cries about why she must have a take-back as it would just ruin her game if she didn't get it, and then afterwards indignantly declaring that it "really" had no impact and she would have won anyway. And all without anyone else needing to suggest otherwise either time!
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    OK, I can live with that:D
    Because they ususally are;). But seriously, in this context the reason I keep saying you are "sore," is because I get the impression that you were upset that AMAZON got a reload, beacause you felt it was a really big deal, and that it cost Merlot (your team) the game. As in "If only AMAZON hadn't got that reload, everything would have been different and we (Merlot) would have won!:sad:" Now I disagree with that sentiment as you know, but if its your opinion then you have every right to it.

    That is NOT why I presumed you were "sore." The "sore" I am referring to is not the part where you think the reload was a big deal, but that you seem to be so unhappy about it... still. It seems like its more than just you wanting to poke some much deserved fun at that bad ol' puddytat, Sommers. It kind of seems like you are really using the reload thing as a vehicle to complain about losing the game. That's just my opinion obviously but I'm just giving you my honest impression about how it sounds.
    Can you point that out for me? I don't know what you mean. I remember using the phrase "sour grapes" a long long time ago, but not in the context you mentioned.
    You are right about that. It certainly was "ridiculously, over the top" but funny too :lmao: you have to admit. That's just Sommers for ya... Mr. RidiculouslyOverTheTop [pimp]
    Uhhh, :lol:*cough* *choke* *gasp*:eek:... Excuse me:confused:? You "let" us have our reload:rolleyes:? Doth mine eyes decieve me?:lol: You didn't "let" us have sh!#:lmao: You guys fought and objected and whined and complained:gripe: and then finally voted against the reload. And then even after it was voted on, you kept complaining about it. You're STILL complaining about it.:cry: (In the Mavs thread, they try to pull this trick too, complaining about how "ungrateful" AMAZON is after they (Mavs) graciously and generously "allowed" us to have a reload :rolleyes:, knowing d@mn well that they voted against it:lol:)

    That's one of the funniest things about this (ongoing) discussion. Not only are you using the reload complaint as a backdoor way of complaining about losing... you also lost in your attempt to vote the reload down, and then you complained about that. You participated in the vote, you lost fair and square, and then you complained about the process being unfair. Then you lose the game fair and square and start complaing that the result of the reload vote was unfair, causing you to lose the game:crazyeye:... Don't get me wrong whb, arguing with you has been one of the more fun and memorable parts of this game for me, but talk about glassiness of houses! sheesh:lol:

    Oh yea, and while I'm on-a-roll, heres another thing:) If everyone knew that I was just "foot-stamping," why all the guilt and righteous indignation? Why all the implication that the reload was such a game changer? If you knew good and well that I was just putting on a show, and it really wasn't that big a deal... how can you try to pretend afterwards that it was a big deal:crazyeye:?
    Right, but you are missing the point (again). The reason I pointed out Blubmuz quitting was not about him foot-stamping, which as you point out, I did some of that myself... and let's be honest, so did you buddy... right? (remember that huge rant that you deleted later becuase of how out-of-line it was?;)) Read the line again... The reason I wrote that line was to point out how Blubmuz was BLAMING the admins (DaveMCW), for him quitting the game. It's about quitting and then blaming someone else for you quitting. When I asked for the reload, I posted and fessed up about what happened and took responsibility for it. Blubmuz DMed, and then tried to deny it, got caught, and then quit and blamed the admins for "wrongfully" punishing him for breaking rules, even though he was clearly guilty.

    So by calling my house "glassy" compared to Blubmuz, what you are doing is putting me in the same category as him. That's not a fair comparison, be honest about that at least. I didn't break rules. As DaveMCW pointed out, I used a timeout, paused the game, and we did a legal amendment to the rules which was voted on by teams. Everything I did, everything was within the rules. At least give me that.:( Even my "foot-stamping" was to persuade folks to vote in our favor, also completely legal, it was not to influence the admins to just "give" us our way. Go back and read the context.
    I don't know who Ms. Bott is, but I get the analogy:D, and I think its a pretty good one (albeit fatally flawed). Here's my response... if as you say you "knew I was just foot stamping" then you also knew that it wasn't really going to "ruin our game." So once you admit that, the rest of the analogy fails right? Because the whole point is that her game DEPENDED on the take-back, and she wouldn't have won without it, right? But here, you admit that our game didn't depend on the take-back at all, because you "knew" as you said, that it was just foot stamping. So if our game didn't depend on the take-back, then the win didn't depend on it either.

    Not to mention that a "take-back" in a game like chess or golf or croquet or whatever Ms. Bott was playing, is probably not analagous to a reload to undo a settled-city error in Civ. What happened with Ms. Bott I imagine, is she thought about her move, decided upon it, moved her piece, and then after she moved it, she realized it was a bad move, and asked for a take-back. That's not analogous to what happened with our reload, you know that, right? What you are suggesting is if you and I are playing Chess, and one of my children comes along flailing their arms and knocks my piece onto another square, that it counts as my move... I mean, Really?:confused: I cant move my piece back to where it was? You're really gonna tell me that I am asking for a "take-back" to undo that? C'mon:(

    But again, what this whole conversation suggests to me, is that you are still trying to imply that Merlot would not have lost, but-for the reload, or at least that AMAZON would not have won. Am I right?:) Because if that is truly the heart of our discussion, then let's talk about that, rather than "whether or not I have the moral ground to sling mud at Blubmuz." What I'm saying is, I suspect that what you really want to talk about is whether AMAZON's win is legitimate, given the reload, and you are using this Blubmuz nonsense to bring it up, right? So let's talk about it;)
     
  8. Caledorn

    Caledorn Chieftain

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    Congratulations on an well played win, Amazons. :)

    I must again apologize for my more or less total abscence the past months, but at least a war between Q and CDZ was avoided (as I would have, as you predicted in the Amazon-Q diplothread, declared war if real life hadn't caught up with me as harshly as it did back when I had to leave turnplaying).
     
  9. whb

    whb Chieftain

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    And just where do you get that impression from? It's certainly not from anything I've said. I suspect it's from somewhere the sun don't shine...

    Now you've descended to posting out-and-out lies. Ho hum.

    The forums are open; you can see what we actually said. To save you the effort of searching, here's the full text of my first two comments on your request, with links into the thread. We were broadly in favour, and did not get to vote (the reload was authorised by Dave before Indiansmoke said 'no')

    Post 1
    """
    I don't think we should tie in-game politics to whether or not an out-of-game rule-change (a reload) is allowed. We should do it if we think it's right. Doing it "if we think it'll help us" just feels like rules-abuse.

    I'm undecided. On the one hand I sympathise and I think the team members' fun is much more important than the end result, so I'd naturally be tempted to say "Oh go on then, have a reload".
    On the other hand, I'm aware it could open a whole can of worms if there's a later reload request that gets denied. (It's usually bending the rules for players that leads to the worst kinds of ill-feeling in games.)
    """


    Post 2
    """
    All a bit moot...

    DaveMcW posted this:
    Quote:
    There are 3 votes of support in the private forums, so you can go ahead and reload, DaveShack.
    Since he used the words "votes of support in the private forums", it's publicly obvious we weren't one of the 3. So I've made a post explaining that the King hasn't been online since before the request was made, which is why we haven't answered yet, and that the sentiment in this thread was almost unanimously to allow the reload. (I don't want anyone thinking that we voted against when we didn't, and would pretty obviously from this thread and Indiansmoke's relationship with Sommers have voted for the reload.)
    """


    Ooh look, you're making up more stuff for me to have said. I just can't wait for the next installment of things you've invented for me (or anyone else you've decided to badmouth round these parts) to have said!

    Indeed we might wonder why you are so stuck on that, as so far as I can see you are the only person in this thread who has made that implication (and keeps making through your ardent unprompted protestations against it!) Could it be you're a teensy bit paranoid about it? That nagging thought at the back of your head that maybe if a butterfly had flapped a different way, your Blubby neighbour would have declared war on you rather than shot themselves in the foot? No, I'm just laughing at the ridiculousness of your made-up rants about everyone you disagree with.

    No, I remember an accurate comment I made and subsequently removed because conversing with you wasn't worth the effort. You were trying some ridiculous badmouthing then as you are now.

    No, it just means she (she's from Just William by the way) is a drama queen whenever she doesn't get her way, and is just as much of a drama queen insisting after the fact that people didn't "let her get her way". And all without anyone ever having to suggest they did -- she can beat up the whole melodramatic squeem-and-squeem-until-I'm-sick all on her own.

    :rolleyes: Someone could say "Hello Sommerswerd" and you'd invent a nice little diatribe about what the whole conversation suggests to you.
     
  10. AlphaShard

    AlphaShard Chieftain

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    Why don't we go back to analyzing the game rather then each other's posts?
     
  11. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Yaaaa whb! I was starting to think you gave up the argument... Which would have made me very sad indeed:(

    So Ok whb you got me :blush:, I am the one who "misremembered" this time. Thanks for those posts setting the historical record straight:goodjob: I was wrong about Merlot's vote. Sorry:(.

    And since I was also wrong about you opposing the reload, I say sorry for that too:blush:

    So I think you've put that issue to bed... Nobody was complaining about the reload at all, in fact nobody could credibly complain about it because everyone supported it:).

    So since you've taken the wind out of that argument :sad:, I guess now I have to go look for fuel to argue who is a bigger drama-queen, Sommers or whb?;)

    :lol: Oh wait, I think I win :queen:... Again:trophy:

    @ Alphashard- We can analyze anything you want, its just nobody is raising anything new to talk about.:(. I've got one... Did anyone know from the beginning that Mavs were doing obsolete's patented WE/SSE economy? When did you guys figure out AMAZON was doing a EE economy?
     
  12. whb

    whb Chieftain

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    One I'd be interested in. I made a little prediction in the Q thread -- in the brief time I lurked and chatted there -- that the space race would turn out to be all about manufacturing and a bit of a lottery for tech (as the timing and politics of which techs teams have to give away under the ETTT would get funky). What actually happened there -- did the ETTT commoditise tech research to being comparatively unadvantageous, and did it turn into a hammer race?
     
  13. AlphaShard

    AlphaShard Chieftain

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    Well I thought it would be a Hammer race but it was more of a espionage win of which I was warned about in my teams threads near the beginning of the game.

    I also see now that my team should have been focusing on getting Corporations instead of planing on who to go to war with.
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Yeah Sushi Co and Mining Co were clutch on this map. Especially Sushi. It was ridiculous... In a good way:)

    @ whb - Yea the ETTT pretty much nullified tech as a relevant issue to victory. It became all about racing to build the parts, and then Espy won the day as Alphashard said.
     
  15. AlphaShard

    AlphaShard Chieftain

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    Yeah Sushi Co turned Procyon from a great city to a poor starving city.
     
  16. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    We were afraid Sirius will deny us key techs and try to be first to launching with 1 or 2 techs and we had a backup plans. We were ready to steal every tech Sirius possibly deny us and we were ready to take with force what is denied to us. Even if this means taking few key cities/the Capitol or even full scale invasion of Sirius. If I am not wrong, AlphaShard tried to deny us tech/s at one point and I had to ask second time for them and hopefully this time we got them without the need of violence.

    Yes and now. We could have won with whatever hammer production we had, just because no one else could build part if we did not allowed him with our uber-espionage we could see and sabotage everything.

    Possible solution to this would have been some kind of "end-turn-duty" - the production is set to something else - like say modern armor, then the respective turn player logs in few minutes before the turn rolls, switch production to SS parts, turn rolls, hammers are put to SS parts, then he switch to something else again and wait for the end of the turn to put the hammers in SS parts. This way I believe we could not sabotage the Ss parts as they would have been hidden for the most of the time.
     
  17. AlphaShard

    AlphaShard Chieftain

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    I never denied, I got an empty request. I think the game was messing up.

    Also I thought we weren't aloud to switch production builds like that.
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Yeah, the history know so many wars because of problems with the communication. Good that I tried second time :)

    I might be wrong, but I think this was for the research only.
     
  19. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso Chieftain

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    Oh, you guys finally finished. We in team Merlot were done months before you slow pokes :D

    Anyhow, big thanks for the map maker and admins. I agree with DaweMcW that experience is much better in selecting the game settings than a democratic vote. In fact I would go so far that in next demogame I'd rather let the admins and map maker to decide on important game settings.

    Seem like this thread has already gone so much OT and to a generic post game rant... discussion that I can safely throw in my two cents.

    I think that the most what I've learned from this game has already been said. I would like to focus on the reload episode a bit more. My issue with the said episode is not so much what happened but rather how the issue was resolved. In my opinion exceptions to agreed upon rules should not be done by a majority votes especially since there was a majority alliance in the game. In future games I'd prefer that exceptions are handled by either a) unanimous vote or b) dictatorial decision by admins. Personally I'm slightly in favour of b) so long as all players promise to only present the facts to the admins instead of threathening to ruin the game for other players.
     
  20. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Guys, I know this is way out of date, but I would also like to apologize for leaving my team (Mavericks) in September 2010. When this game started, I had planned to continue playing the game throughout September 2010 and onwards, but that month was when I started college, and I didn't realize that my room wouldn't have enough space for a desktop computer. (I had a roommate as well, which further limited the real estate there, and my laptop was a Mac, which can't play Civ.) And unfortunately, there were too many distractions for me once I began college, and this game -- sadly -- became low on my priority list, and I wasn't able to even advise the team as much as I would have wanted. Anyway, just wanted to say that; I really wish I could have stayed to the end to help the team better, but I would also like to commend slaze for taking over the teams. :goodjob:
     

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